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I try to give both sides of an opposing thought a possibility.
For all we know they can see it.
Perhaps its to keep fake oil off the market, as I had suggested.
Alternatively, I have considered strongly that I may be too retarded for this cuckoo's nest as suggested by others.
As far Jaguar using dye to tell what you are doing. I doubt it and present this argument. A oil analysis will tell them far more than that and tell them why the engine failed. And they need to know that for their own research. Besides they dont need dye; they have something far more effective, a receipt from a Jaguar dealer of the oil change/purchase of oil. And its automatically noted on your history like carfax.
Under a UV light I don't see any difference in the Castrol Edge Professional OE and any other oil.
I have a copy of the Ford WSS M2C925-A spec. There is NO requirement in that spec for a UV dye in the oil. (The only reference to a color is in 3.4.5 which states "Shall be clear and bright with no objectionable odor" See below.) Since the dye is not a requirement of the Ford WSS M2C925-A oil, Jaguar cannot use a UV indicator to determine if the proper oil was used.
Bottom line - I don't know why I am not seeing any UV indicators and you are. My LEDs are emitting at 375 nm - maybe that is not the correct wavelength. But it does not matter because there is no requirement for a UV indicator in the oil.
Here are pictures of the Castrol, Supertech (Walmart's finest housebrand), and Chevron oil bottles under UV light. All are full.
I have no knowlege of why Jaguar would require oil to have a dye additive but I can attest that Ford used oil dye during engine build to test for infant leaks. Having been out of the business for over 10y now though I would suspect that is no longer the case as there was a large push to delete that test in my last years there.
Engine dye in fresh oil it lights up very significantly, more so than indicated in the photos. This is not to say dye is not present but that the photos appear to be typical of fresh oil under black light rather than dye. Also, the dye Ford used had a very limited shelf life and did not lend itself to long term storage so it was injected during engine oil fill not premixed.
Is the oil Genuine?
Is the method correct? (not from what I can see from the photo)
Moreover, what is the objective of this home test; second guessing Jaguar and British Petroleum? With whom we have legal recourse.
I will say this for those who can keep an open mind and dont get upset. In science its not the inability to prove the existence of something that tells you are on the right path- its the ability to prove. You can clearly see the UV in my photo.
... Engine dye in fresh oil it lights up very significantly, more so than indicated in the photos. This is not to say dye is not present but that the photos appear to be typical of fresh oil under black light rather than dye....
Scientific methodology would then suggest the hypothesis that the fresh oil reacts more significantly to UV light than used oil. This finding would certainly explain the empirical evidence as illustrated in Q&C's post,
Given that, it could also be used to support the claim there is no dye present in the oil.
Last edited by GordoCatCar; 07-04-2017 at 11:45 AM.
Almost all of the oil supplier engineers I worked with told me that not all oil brands are created equal and that the oil specifications allowed for a bit broader make up than one would think.
It is most important that DIY or indi shop oil changes maintain the use of Jag spec oil rather than by brand. So for me, I'm sticking with that spec and staying away from "off brand" products.
Does anyone know of any issues where Jag has questioned or contested oil specifications were not followed?
Almost all of the oil supplier engineers I worked with told me that not all oil brands are created equal and that the oil specifications allowed for a bit broader make up than one would think.
It is most important that DIY or indi shop oil changes maintain the use of Jag spec oil rather than by brand. So for me, I'm sticking with that spec and staying away from "off brand" products.
Does anyone know of any issues where Jag has questioned or contested oil specifications were not followed?
You are absolutely spot on! on all points.
Yes there was a brother in England years ago who blew an engine- we were with him throughout the whole ordeal. Jaguar denied his claim. He spent $20k on a new engine and sold the car a month later.
More specifically: the engine skipped time. The cam actuator has tiny openings for oil, the actuator controls timing. MOREOVER: I posted the Jaguar patent on this actuator that shows what the potential for the problem is. They ingeniously use a self-locking pin that prevents the oil from flowing out after engine shutdown. This prevents premature timing chain wear during startup while the actuator is waiting for oil pressure to build. The problem there is that when you keep oil in a tiny chamber in the top part of the engine while there is heatsoak, you are effectively baking oil. This is how you season a cast-iron pan. You better hope the oil is going to be of the variety that does not create sludge/coke. (i dont know an oil that completely succeeds at this goal)
I have posted videos of how this Castrol oil is better than many at avoiding coke.
But hey, real tests, patents, technology, mean nothing to this new tough crowd. They can prove Einstein wrong with hypotheticals.
I think everyone here agrees that use of the proper specified oil is paramount. And that using cheaper, off brand, products is a receipt for disaster.
However, the issue raised by some is in the translation of the Jaguar proprietary specification into industry based commercial standards. Jaguar and Land Rover cite Castrol Edge Pro OE 0W20 as the only oil to meet their proprietary STJLR.03.5004 spec. That seems pretty clear.
However, Jaguar then goes on to muddy the waters by adding that if the aforementioned product is not available, the Ford WSS-M2C 925 Specification Motor Oil 5W20 is an acceptable substitute. The lack of further clarity or explanation is significant in that Jaguar doesn't authorize its use as an equivalent; but merely recommends its use as an acceptable alternative when the preferred specified product is unavailable. So is it equal? If it is, then we should be able to use it in confidence. If not, then will it damage the engine? And if it will, then why is Jaguar recommending its use? ad infinitum.
The rest of the debate is merely a back and forth banter by members trying to prove or disprove personal opinions about Jaguar, oil and other things that go crash in the night.
However, Jaguar then goes on to muddy the waters by adding that if the aforementioned product is not available, the Ford WSS-M2C 925 Specification Motor Oil 5W20 is an acceptable substitute. The lack of further clarity or explanation is significant in that Jaguar doesn't authorize its use as an equivalent; but merely recommends its use as an acceptable alternative when the preferred specified product is unavailable. So is it equal? If it is, then we should be able to use it in confidence. If not, then will it damage the engine? And if it will, then why is Jaguar recommending its use? ad infinitum.
Your point is circuitous and moot.
The Jaguar oil is available. It can simply end there.
They are not allowed by law to force you to buy any specific brand.
They have made the oil spec open to all- if you can find that oil spec you can use it. If it does not perform to the standards of Jaguar, they have the right to deny any claim, as can the extended warranty company, as can any recalls that occur years after your warranty has ended.
Here is where you are muddying the waters- they never said "if its not available" never. They said use this oil spec. If that specification is not available, only in emergency can you use up to 1liter of an alternative.
Last edited by Queen and Country; 07-04-2017 at 01:18 PM.
My limited knowledge of how those specs are written prevents any detail of why it is written that way. It is highly possible it may not be an actual engieering requirement as much as some brand endorsement agreement (I hope no one is offended by that suggestion). A lot of companies have product alliances/endorsement agreements that may or may not have an actual impact to their own products.
That is why I am confident in the WSS-M2C 925 specification as it is a Ford engine under the hood. I'd be glad to hear if someone could actually reveal how they developed the confusing specs though.
I bought this car primarily for the incredible engine. It was essentially Jaguar's first engine that is entirely a Jaguar design.
I followed the early development of this engine very closely. To me it was quite reminiscent of the herculean effort that put the Merlin engine on the map. Not quite as heroic or worthy, yet a significant achievement as car engines go from my home.
Its really quite underrated and misunderstood due to the various hands in the pie. But its unmistakably the best of Britain- a first ever as far as I am concerned when it comes to good engines that came out of England. Yes there was the BRM, but how many of those actually ran. The Aj8Gen3 has outperformed anything that came out of Germany, Italy and Japan in 2006. Most unusual for British consumer motoring- F1 a different story.
While I dont know the details of the oil specs. The oil strategy on this engine is very unique, including the aforementioned keeping oil in hot cam. Notably smaller passages and reducing the size of the oil pump.
The proof is in the pudding, more power sooner, better gas mileage and longevity than the competitors at the time. While doing something radically different. They gained the benefit of my doubt.
A past feature of the Castrol EDGE Professional product line was the incorporation of a UV dye which signified proof of product authenticity however today Castrol EDGE Professional formulations do not contain the UV dye.
On Tue, 4 Jul at 12:29 PM , Gordon Richards <gordopost@yahoo.com> wrote:
Perhaps you can answer a question regarding the use of an ultra violet dye marker used in your Castrol Edge Pro OE product. The is the oil used by authorized Jag dealers in accordance with their spec: Jaguar Land Rover STJLR.03.5004. Some members argue there is a dye marker which can be seen under UV light; others argue that is urban legend. We have empirical evidence supporting each side.
We are having a very long and arduous debate, and you could make a good number Jaguar XK enthusiasts very happy by shedding some light on the discussion.
however today Castrol EDGE Professional formulations do not contain the UV dye.
Bam botta boom! Good job putting this to bed. Now, could you ask them if it really is a "special formula" or is it the same as any other Synthetic high-grade 0w-20 oil. Betcha they won't be as forthcoming. Not that it matters to me as I simply go to the dealer and pay the $140 and will continue to do so.
Originally Posted by Queen and Country
I should be banned for pouring cold water on fantasies
Yes, everyone on this thread should be banned for spending this much time on the inconsequential. Especially me for adding nothing of substance.
Now, could you ask them if it really is a "special formula" or is it the same as any other Synthetic high-grade 0w-20 oil. Betcha they won't be as forthcoming.
If it were the same as olive oil, would they add a UV dye to protect authenticity?
You ask about other high-grade synthetic oil like they are all created equal; they are not.
Here are 2 different 0-20 oils from my favorite manufacturer. One is half the price of the other. The difference is the amount of detergent. https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...?code=ASMQT-EA
When I say inconsequential it is exclusive to the financial aspect. I cannot recall one person saying they wouldn't use the Jag spec'd oil. The reason is that the difference in cost between non-Jag and Jag oil is minimal when factored into the overall annual operating cost of this car. This thread went round and round about the subject and ended up at the beginning, we still use Jaguar spec'd oil even if there isn't a dye to prove we didn't.
I believe that Jaguar tested and approved the Castrol not for financial gain but to establish a controllable standard. I recall you are of the mind that Jaguar developed the formula with Castrol and I feel that Jaguar simply picked an existing formula that worked well. The end result is the same so it is arguing for argument sake, I cannot say I am right or you are wrong and I am not upset that you do not share my thinking. I agree with you 100% that we should use the Jaguar oil, regardless of how they arrived at the selection it is determined to be ideal for our engines operation.
We are and always have been in 100% agreement, particularly in since I am only confirming and supporting your purchase as opposed to being a contrarian for the sake of entertainment.
I have no trouble with Jaguar picking an existing oil as opposed to this being some proprietary silver bullet. I can appreciate a Del Frisco steak, when essentially its beef that any farmer can raise, but cannot guarantee the quality I seek.
Truth is I would pay extra not to use Castrol or even buy from Jaguar for many reasons. Despite having incredible connections in the auto industry, have absolutely not been able to buy this formulation of oil from anyone- and several make it.
There is no doubt a distribution conspiracy, but that further underscores the uniqueness of the oil. Is the uniqueness necessary would be the question others would raise. I dont know. If someone rolls the dice, please let us know how you fared.
I drive maybe 500-700 miles a year and originally had a 6 year extended warranty which is now down to 3 years. I take my car into Jaguar every year to have the oil sucked out with their "mystery oil" in order to keep my warranty in tack and avoid any loop holes for future warranty work. Yes, the oil does not really need changing. However for the $100 + it costs (with $50 coupon) I'm certain they won't say I didn't do the minimum service. Regardless, if I didn't have any warranty I would still be bringing my car to Jaguar for all my oil changes. That's just me. Too many horror stories from anyone trying to save a few pennies for an oil change....especially on our cars. Again.. That's just me..... and what do I know?
07-04-2017, 09:01 AM
