Lets not conveniently shift the goal post when we are wrong.

We have gone from Denying timing chain wear, where I was asked to show one other manufacturer of a DI having problems. I have shown an entire industry in agreement Timing Chain wear IS accelerated on DI engines.

Of course the exact mechanisms are not entirely understood, but all agree the culprit is in the soot- which YES oakridge natl labs has confirmed to be a NEW type of gremlin we have never seen before.

(for our candian brethren, Oakridge is our top nuclear research facility)

 

Incidentally, I have only post a small fraction of the research that has been done,with all in agreement that there is something new here that we have no prior experience with.

 

"The particles that are released by GDI engines are smaller and more varied in size than diesel particles"

Oak Ridge National Labs

 

Are they new and previously unknown? Do the particle distributions overlap?

Ford solved the timing chain wear problem in 3.5l engines by installing a better timing chain.

The paper you quoted in the previous post basically said the timing chain wear problem was multi-factorial, and not initiated by carbon particles.

I am beginning to believe that your understanding of the English language is different from mine.

Oh and one last thing, your remark about being Canadian and knowledge of Oak Ridges National Laboratories is completely gratuitous.
Years ago, when I worked for a living, myself and a number of my colleagues in Canada worked closely with US nuclear facilities including ORNL, Mound, Savannah River, Idaho National Labs, Los Alamos etc. A number, including myself held Q Clearance for various nuclear facilities and are probably more conversant with the facilities than many US citizens including you.

 

What was the "fix" to correct this issue, and was it covered under warranty?

 

I posted that exact quote in a previous post and you still asked 'show me who says the soot is new'. I thought perhaps you did not know Oak Ridge auto lab, there is no reason to. It was considerate.

You already established supreme credibility and authority when you burst on to the scene saying there was no timing chain problem and comparing it to the over-hyped Nikasil, even ridiculing it. Please do not take that as condescension or patronizing; its meant to underscore our emotional differences. Me and several others here are approaching this from the other end, we dont consider ourselves as authorities on the matter, we know something is afoot, we dont trust oem, academia, engineers to be forthcoming, we have to take as many precautions as possible.

We are in emotional disagreement, the last study offered great proof to that, as it contained enough ambiguity to support either parties claims and I found it interesting how you only cited the few (to me meaningless) side points that supported your stance.


Lets review.
1. We have established timing chain is a problem.
2.We know an easy way to get soot out of oil.

There is no more than this....... But hairsplitting

 

Since you boldly asked if I had comprehension disabilities or otherwise communication barrier. Read this thread thoroughly you will find that Lothar described in detail the experience.

Yes jaguar has a unwritten warranty on this known issue. (at least my my experience)

 

I do believe you are confusing my username with another.

 

So Sorry, I did. They wont hassle you on the warranty. However the other manufacturers who have had thousands of these problems have figured out a racket as good as the casinos. They will only pay for it if it has a certain percentage of wear. So say that at 30% wear you experience noise- thats not good enough for them, they want you to come back at 60% wear, by which time you would have disposed the car, the next owner may not find it till the warranty has expired.

If you have it done, make sure you get new phasers- these will also go if you had a soot problem, Jaguar has a patented cam phaser that operates on oil as opposed to slow electric motors- these get clogged up too. Lothar had to go back and have these done, which convinced me that soot had some role, and I started investigating.

Here is an incredible article, from the service world that underscores the problem without mincing words.

"The GDI combustion process is introducing more soot into the engine’s oil. The soot that a GDI engine creates is carbonaceous and not like regular soot created in a non-GDI engines. This has captured the attention of both car manufacturers and lubricant manufacturers.
GDI-produced soot has been found to react with certain lubricants and additive packages in a very unique way. Traditionally, soot leads to the thickening of engine oil and eventually the formation of sludge. But this soot tends to cause engine wear. The combination of combustion acids, fuel dilution from incomplete combustion and GDI soot, has been found to be a substantial reason for accelerated timing chain wear. It may not be a coincidence that GM’s 2.4 and 3.6 engines – which suffer from timing chain issues – use gasoline direct injection.
New GF-6 series lubricants are being proposed to address these issues and there’s even a new test to evaluate the ability of the oil to resist timing chain wear."


This is from a guy that won Tech of the year, he says dont blame the oil, blame the oil changes.
Talking Tech: Don?t blame the oil - Auto Service World

 

"However, it’s through this unique method of introducing fuel to the engine that high amounts of GDI soot can be formed. And while the GDI soot phenomenon is yet very new, industry experts and researchers including those within Lubrizol Additives have begun the investigation into the hows and whys.
So far, it has been established that the new substance falls somewhere between traditional soot and sludge, while yet maintaining several unique properties. A strong understanding of both traditional soot and sludge has helped Lubrizol understand the fundamental differences between those materials and GDI soot.

• Appearance GDI soot simply looks different than either traditional soot or sludge. Traditional soot maintains a turbostratic structure, meaning the substance’s carbon planes appear in a logical pattern. GDI soot, meanwhile, is far more amorphous and doesn’t maintain a firm structure.
• Chemistry At the chemical level, GDI soot is more aromatic than traditional soot, and is slightly more polar. For both of these reasons, GDI soot has been found to interact with lubricants in certain ways that have not been previously witnessed. Specifically, the material can interfere with lubricant additives and the ways in which those additives perform their intended functions—primarily the lubricant’s ability to provide the robust protection that GDI engines require. Traditional soot is commonly responsible for lubricant thickening—while this problem exists to some extent with GDI soot, oil marketers and OEMs are far more concerned with the non-traditional engine wear associated with GDI soot.

Combined with acids and fuel dilution from incomplete combustion, GDI soot has been found specifically to contribute to accelerated wear on an engine’s timing chain, a vitally important component connecting the engine’s crankshaft to the camshaft. Also responsible for valve timing, the timing chain’s connection must remain precisely accurate. Unchecked chain wear can effectively cause the chain itself to elongate, which negatively alters valve timing, and can lead to major engine damage.
This issue is being addressed within the ongoing development of the proposed GF-6 specification. A new test is being developed that seeks to evaluate a lubricant’s ability to help mitigate chain wear, and Lubrizol has been closely involved with that development."


What say you timing chain deniers? lol

 

Clever name,
I currently am using OEM filter(C2C41611) made in Germany; I did buy before a NAPA Gold ( WIX 57279) but took it back because gasket was too narrow!
Now have 2 Mann 's (W719/7's) also Made in Germany; they are 3/4" longer than the OEM's.
Like that a lot, BUT they don't have flats for my wrench adapter; I guess they don't want over tightening (many people do this!). Maybe have to use my strap wench to remove (not a big deal).
5000 mile oil/filter change is so much better than Jags 10,000 mile, IMHO.
Once stripped down an MG engine that had 1000 mile oil changed; could not measure any wear anywhere! Of course that was before multi-grade modern oil (am I that old!).
Your WIX filter picture shows Made in China, what a shame..............

The NAPA Gold filter (WIX?) for our XK8 states Made in USA; will have to read the box just like I do for sugar & salt content!

Cheers, Adrian

 

Above is what I said a few posts ago. That is what I think is the current state of affairs. No cherry picking. I am not emotionally involved, I have never claimed I was an expert, Queen and Country made that claim. I only began looking at this forum because I was considering the purchase of a 2007 XKR.I read the first few posts of this thread and thought I could contribute. My error. Maybe I should look for an XJR or XFR.

I will however provide three other observations before closing.

1."Without analysis all else is a guess". There is a way to go before the analysis of timing chain wear in PDI engines is complete. There is still much guessing going on.

2.Here are two definitions.
a. carbonaceous means "consisting of or containing carbon or its compounds"

b. soot means "a mass of impure carbon particles resulting from the incomplete combustion of hydrocarbons"

3.I use full synthetic oil in all my cars. The Jaguars, I use only in summer and I change the oil just before I store the cars for winter. I do believe in the importance of clean oil in reduced engine wear.

 

I think you are an expert sir, why else would you be teaching us the definition of soot and carbonaceous; like we were school children.

Respectfully, you did say you were an expert when you called me a fool that had inhaled soot; in your opening volley no less. I think I am a fool but have a very good fool's gut feeling (guess) that all this information is as new to you as it is us.

 

I have not called you any names.

How to Disagree

 

I have some important news.
But first, here is how we get back to what is important and prevent future distractions.

If you are a biology student studying zika virus you want to wait till all the studies are complete and science has the benefit of hindsight.
If you are a pregnant woman in Miami you have different objectives and course of action.

So to those unaffected by GDI timing chain, this is merely an exercise in mental master debating. Not unlike the notion that they have a FType SVR in the shopping cart and the purchase hinges on the outcome of an argument on a blog. lol.

How do we square this? which group of nut-jobs has this right? The side that has the cars on 'layaway' has not a single piece of evidence that TC is not a problem in GDI.

 

Count me in the biology student camp, sitting quietly and taking notes.

 

Could there reduction in abrasive particles with engine flush?

Many concur that these particles (5micron) are getting stuck in the nook&crannies, i.e the pins of the chains.

It takes very little bad oil to accelerate the breakdown of the new.

Lubegard makes excellent transmission products- most guys swear by it, not to be confused with mickey-mouse companies like lucas oil, slick-fiddy et al. They are sticklers about sticking to their core competency and you will never see them in most parts stores as a part of some strategic display. They make an engine flush. While I would not use an engine flush even in my 40 year old engines. I would trust anything the lubegard folks make. But cant be entire sure about the use in this engine. Anyone see any potential downsides?

 

Imagine if Roger Ailes said that.

 

Your very first words to me. Strictly personal. Then you took a crack at Lawyers. Since you posted a link about how to communicate and lazy people like to disagree. Keep in mind, you are here disagreeing, not me.

May I be positive and give you back a lesson that will serve you well in life, and Lawyers would be the first to tell you this; When you burn a bridge in front of you, you can never go forward.

 

Q&C, I am very glad you've brought this topic to the forefront. The links you've provided to back your initial claim are spot-on enlightening an otherwise oblivious group to something that was kept pretty well "under the covers" by the manufacturers and I thank you for that.

Lastly on this matter - oil and mfg's are circling the wagons trying to figure out if this issue is one of additives being a partial cause, if it is due to the design and/or composition of the timing chains themselves, or a combination of the two. It'll be interesting to see what happens here. As touched upon in one of your attachments a similar isue arose years ago when small cars began turbocharging and the oil became highly stressed as a result of higher temps and higher pressures. I did not notice anything with regard to synthetic having any benefit over conventional oils or if cleanliness was the only factor here. I saw an issue stated with, some tests being done, but no either resolution (of course or this topic would have been a lot easier to address) or anything else aside from recommending more frequent oil changes really anything that a consumer can do at this point. The concept of better filtration is brought up but nothing conclusive at this point. Oil companies are trying to figure out a new oil formula, rated differently, that would be able to better manage these particles without breaking down or turning to sludge... that being said would it not be prudent to perhaps use Marvel Mystery oil to try to eliminate the possible sludge and maybe add Moly to the oil upon changing?

My only caveat would be once the facts/data are provided then there is some embellishment... claims that "changing your oil at XXX miles WILL double your timing chains life" as you claimed, nowhere in any of that data was that ever mentioned, that was taking liberties on your part. According to most of your kindly offered research it would be completely reasonable to assume clean oil would provide great benefits to reduce possible damage but for you to then quote numbers/miles is void of any study or claims by the experts you supplied us with. Yes Jag did lower the advised oil change intervals as did some other mfg's but you claimed certain mileage and definitive results that are nowhere to be found... and I did take the time to read all of the links you provided. Let the facts speak for themselves, no need to ad-lib upon the research of those experts and studies.

I'm not piling on here, I'm on your side with this whole topic not like Mikey. Not trying to pick a fight as I very much value this topic and the time you took in sharing this important information.