Tire rotation?
#1
Tire rotation?
So more snow/ice in MD coming, and salt on the roads, so my 2010 XK sits in the garage with a CTEK. Sigh. I've got Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 on Ruby (claret color). The tires are not directional, they have 'outside' marked on the side wall. Obviously, can't rotate front to back, but I could rotate side to side. Is that beneficial for evening out tire wear and prolonging the life of the tires? Does anyone rotate their tires side to side?
If nothing else, it lets me look at the condition of brakes and suspension parts. Ruby needs some attention!
Best,
~wrair
If nothing else, it lets me look at the condition of brakes and suspension parts. Ruby needs some attention!
Best,
~wrair
#2
Guess I am challenged in 3-D space. From Tire Rack (guess I should have read this first):
Directional (Unidirectional) Tread Patterns
A directional (also called a unidirectional) tread pattern is designed to roll in only one direction. It incorporates lateral grooves on both sides of the tire's centerline that point in the same direction and result in v-shaped tread blocks. These grooves enhance hydroplaning resistance at high speeds by pumping water more efficiently through the tread pattern. Unless they are dismounted and remounted on their wheels to accommodate use on the other side of the vehicle, directional tires are to be used on one side of the vehicle and are intended to be rotated from the front axle to the rear axle. If different tire sizes are used on the front vs. rear axle, the tires become location-specific and prohibit tire rotation unless remounted.
So if I flipped the tire left to right, the direction indicator on the side wall will be going in the wrong direction. So apparently, can't be done without remounting.
Sorry for the dyslexia!
Directional (Unidirectional) Tread Patterns
A directional (also called a unidirectional) tread pattern is designed to roll in only one direction. It incorporates lateral grooves on both sides of the tire's centerline that point in the same direction and result in v-shaped tread blocks. These grooves enhance hydroplaning resistance at high speeds by pumping water more efficiently through the tread pattern. Unless they are dismounted and remounted on their wheels to accommodate use on the other side of the vehicle, directional tires are to be used on one side of the vehicle and are intended to be rotated from the front axle to the rear axle. If different tire sizes are used on the front vs. rear axle, the tires become location-specific and prohibit tire rotation unless remounted.
So if I flipped the tire left to right, the direction indicator on the side wall will be going in the wrong direction. So apparently, can't be done without remounting.
Sorry for the dyslexia!
#3
So more snow/ice in MD coming, and salt on the roads, so my 2010 XK sits in the garage with a CTEK. Sigh. I've got Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3 on Ruby (claret color). The tires are not directional, they have 'outside' marked on the side wall. Obviously, can't rotate front to back, but I could rotate side to side. Is that beneficial for evening out tire wear and prolonging the life of the tires? Does anyone rotate their tires side to side?
If nothing else, it lets me look at the condition of brakes and suspension parts. Ruby needs some attention!
Best,
~wrair
If nothing else, it lets me look at the condition of brakes and suspension parts. Ruby needs some attention!
Best,
~wrair
#4
Thanks, Jagtoes. It is not so much that there is a problem, but rather that I prefer to be proactive in doing regular maintenance. No obvious wear now, and an alignment was done ~ 1000 miles ago. I regularly check tire pressure with a gauge since I can't get that from the OBDII as far as I know. (She who must be obeyed has an SRX that provides the 4 tire pressures on a screen.)
Stay warm!
Stay warm!
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jagtoes (02-14-2016)
#5
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#7
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#8
Just a general comment on directional tires
Understand what you're dealing with:
60 mph=88 ft sec. i.e. 1 mile a minute.
One tire rotates approx. 850 times per mile, or at 60 mph 14 times a second
Real world test show directional tires run 'backwards' perform just as well as when run 'forwards'.
Two things materially affect the tires resistance to hydroplaning, tread depth and tire pressure, the deeper the tread (within reason) the better resistance, and the higher the tire pressure the better the resistance.
Tread design has less affect than the marketing guys would like...
Regards,
Understand what you're dealing with:
60 mph=88 ft sec. i.e. 1 mile a minute.
One tire rotates approx. 850 times per mile, or at 60 mph 14 times a second
Real world test show directional tires run 'backwards' perform just as well as when run 'forwards'.
Two things materially affect the tires resistance to hydroplaning, tread depth and tire pressure, the deeper the tread (within reason) the better resistance, and the higher the tire pressure the better the resistance.
Tread design has less affect than the marketing guys would like...
Regards,
#9
Really, directional tires run 'backwards' are equivalent? What is the rationale for having directional tires? I don't really think there is a conspiracy by the tire companies. Would you point me to the documentation?
RE hydroplaning - presumably Tire Rack, Consumer Distorts, etc testing is performed on new tires (with similar tread depth), yet not all are equal. All I can say is I've had some pretty bad tires over my driving years.
Best,
wrair
RE hydroplaning - presumably Tire Rack, Consumer Distorts, etc testing is performed on new tires (with similar tread depth), yet not all are equal. All I can say is I've had some pretty bad tires over my driving years.
Best,
wrair
#10
wrair,
From the horses mouth, Tire Rack:
Mounted Backward on a Dry Track
Since we knew that directional tires are designed to emphasize wet performance, we didn't expect to find much, if any, performance difference with the tires mounted "backwards" on a dry track. We were surprised at how close it was. In this condition the Eagle F1 GS-D3 tires continued to provide predictable handling and good grip. If anything, mounting the tires backwards helped free-up the Cobra a little, slightly reducing its steady state understeer. With no handling quirks or surprises, the car ran 29.465 second average lap times, within 8/100 of a second of the times turned in with the tires mounted correctly.
Mounted Backward on a Wet Track
This is where we expected to find some noticeable differences since the tires would now be pulling water toward the center of their footprint, reducing the available traction. However, the lap times and drivers' comments indicated that the wet performance was still there. The Cobra ran average lap times of 30.387 seconds, just 1/100 second different than when the tires were mounted correctly.
Now, like the rest of us that do not accept marketing hype as truth, do the research on hydroplaning, tread depth and pressure, including the aviation formula for predicting hydroplaning speeds.
Them come back and we can discuss this subject.
Regards,
From the horses mouth, Tire Rack:
Mounted Backward on a Dry Track
Since we knew that directional tires are designed to emphasize wet performance, we didn't expect to find much, if any, performance difference with the tires mounted "backwards" on a dry track. We were surprised at how close it was. In this condition the Eagle F1 GS-D3 tires continued to provide predictable handling and good grip. If anything, mounting the tires backwards helped free-up the Cobra a little, slightly reducing its steady state understeer. With no handling quirks or surprises, the car ran 29.465 second average lap times, within 8/100 of a second of the times turned in with the tires mounted correctly.
Mounted Backward on a Wet Track
This is where we expected to find some noticeable differences since the tires would now be pulling water toward the center of their footprint, reducing the available traction. However, the lap times and drivers' comments indicated that the wet performance was still there. The Cobra ran average lap times of 30.387 seconds, just 1/100 second different than when the tires were mounted correctly.
Now, like the rest of us that do not accept marketing hype as truth, do the research on hydroplaning, tread depth and pressure, including the aviation formula for predicting hydroplaning speeds.
Them come back and we can discuss this subject.
Regards,
#12
I saw the articles a few months back and didn't think much of it then. It only makes one wonder what is the design/engineering concept and how was it proven out . It also makes me curious as to what is the thought/logic of the Conti DWS tires I have on the rear. They are marked to have one side mounted to the outside. You can see the different design of the tread pattern but what difference would it be to mount them the opposite way. Next thing we'll find out is the speed rating doesn't really make much of a difference .
#13
I saw the articles a few months back and didn't think much of it then. It only makes one wonder what is the design/engineering concept and how was it proven out . It also makes me curious as to what is the thought/logic of the Conti DWS tires I have on the rear. They are marked to have one side mounted to the outside.
#14
Since I am old, I was a youngster when Radial tires first came out. Anyway, the Advice of the Day way back then was do not mix Radial and Bias-Ply tires on the same vehicle. The other Advice was to always run Radial Tires in the same direction, as keep the right-side tires on the right side. Left on the Left.... rotation could be done back-to-front only. I don't know the reasoning behind it, but it was so told.
I don't know if that is still accurate, or if it ever WAS accurate, but that was the deal back then. Having "ROTATION" arrows would assure that. "Outside" wouldn't.
I truly have no idea if any of the above info is ACCURATE, but it was the way people did things way.... back.... when....
I don't know if that is still accurate, or if it ever WAS accurate, but that was the deal back then. Having "ROTATION" arrows would assure that. "Outside" wouldn't.
I truly have no idea if any of the above info is ACCURATE, but it was the way people did things way.... back.... when....
#15
Cee Jay,
You are sort of right about bias ply and radial tires;
Never mix on the same axle.
You can mix bias with radials if you put the radials on the front, not the other way round. The reasoning being the the sidewall flex in the radials will cause understeer, which is preferable to bias on the front that will induce oversteer.
Now finding bias ply tires is difficult.
I've never heard any rules about not rotating radials to their other side of the car.
The only thing that I remember has changed over the years is, in the old days, if you bought two new tires, you put them on the front. The reasoning was steering and stopping was more important than traction. Now the new tires are installed on the rear, because in wet conditions if you aquaplane you slow down to regain steering control, but if the rear looses traction, your in a spin, and for most drivers it happens so suddenly it's not recoverable.
At least that's what this white haired old boy remembers.
Regards,
You are sort of right about bias ply and radial tires;
Never mix on the same axle.
You can mix bias with radials if you put the radials on the front, not the other way round. The reasoning being the the sidewall flex in the radials will cause understeer, which is preferable to bias on the front that will induce oversteer.
Now finding bias ply tires is difficult.
I've never heard any rules about not rotating radials to their other side of the car.
The only thing that I remember has changed over the years is, in the old days, if you bought two new tires, you put them on the front. The reasoning was steering and stopping was more important than traction. Now the new tires are installed on the rear, because in wet conditions if you aquaplane you slow down to regain steering control, but if the rear looses traction, your in a spin, and for most drivers it happens so suddenly it's not recoverable.
At least that's what this white haired old boy remembers.
Regards,
#16
So no hype. I purchased the directional tires ONLY because they matched what was on the rear (bought the car used).
Is there hype with the directional? Can't say I've seen that 'feature' advertised!
Regarding the reference to Tire Rack, that may be for one tire type, sample size is 1.
Tire Rack also says this:
From Tire Rack
Directional (Unidirectional) Tread Pattern
A directional (also called a unidirectional) tread pattern is designed to roll in only one direction. It features lateral grooves on both sides of the tire's centerline that point in the same direction and result in v-shaped tread blocks. These grooves increase hydroplaning resistance at high speeds by pumping water more efficiently through the tread pattern. Unless they're dismounted and remounted on their wheels to accommodate use on the other side of the vehicle, directional tires are to be installed on one side of the vehicle and are intended to be rotated from the front axle to the rear axle. If different tire sizes are used on the front vs. rear axle, the tires become location-specific and tire rotation is prohibited unless remounted. Two of our best rated all-season directional tires are the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus and Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position. - See more at: Symmetric, Asymmetric, Directional, Unidirectional - What Does This Mean? - Choose the Best Tires with Zig | Tire Rack
Or how about this from Michelin!
From Michelin "Proper use of directional tires:
Directional (Unidirectional) Tread Pattern
Once directional tires are worn greater than 50%, there is no negative effect of running them in a direction opposite to the indicated direction of rotation.
Operating directional tires from new to 50% worn in the opposite direction of that indicated on the tire will result in premature onset of irregular wear, excessive noise levels and significantly reduced tread life.
In any case, I realize I can not rotate my tires (without remounting).
Thanks for the info and discussion.
wrair
Is there hype with the directional? Can't say I've seen that 'feature' advertised!
Regarding the reference to Tire Rack, that may be for one tire type, sample size is 1.
Tire Rack also says this:
From Tire Rack
Directional (Unidirectional) Tread Pattern
A directional (also called a unidirectional) tread pattern is designed to roll in only one direction. It features lateral grooves on both sides of the tire's centerline that point in the same direction and result in v-shaped tread blocks. These grooves increase hydroplaning resistance at high speeds by pumping water more efficiently through the tread pattern. Unless they're dismounted and remounted on their wheels to accommodate use on the other side of the vehicle, directional tires are to be installed on one side of the vehicle and are intended to be rotated from the front axle to the rear axle. If different tire sizes are used on the front vs. rear axle, the tires become location-specific and tire rotation is prohibited unless remounted. Two of our best rated all-season directional tires are the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus and Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position. - See more at: Symmetric, Asymmetric, Directional, Unidirectional - What Does This Mean? - Choose the Best Tires with Zig | Tire Rack
Or how about this from Michelin!
From Michelin "Proper use of directional tires:
Directional (Unidirectional) Tread Pattern
Once directional tires are worn greater than 50%, there is no negative effect of running them in a direction opposite to the indicated direction of rotation.
Operating directional tires from new to 50% worn in the opposite direction of that indicated on the tire will result in premature onset of irregular wear, excessive noise levels and significantly reduced tread life.
In any case, I realize I can not rotate my tires (without remounting).
Thanks for the info and discussion.
wrair
#17
So no hype. I purchased the directional tires ONLY because they matched what was on the rear (bought the car used).
...... Two of our best rated all-season directional tires are the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus and Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position. - See more at: Symmetric, Asymmetric, Directional, Unidirectional - What Does This Mean? - Choose the Best Tires with Zig | Tire Rack
Or how about this from Michelin!
From Michelin "Proper use of directional tires:
Directional (Unidirectional) Tread Pattern
Once directional tires are worn greater than 50%, there is no negative effect of running them in a direction opposite to the indicated direction of rotation.
Operating directional tires from new to 50% worn in the opposite direction of that indicated on the tire will result in premature onset of irregular wear, excessive noise levels and significantly reduced tread life.
In any case, I realize I can not rotate my tires (without remounting).
Thanks for the info and discussion.
wrair
...... Two of our best rated all-season directional tires are the Michelin Pilot Sport A/S Plus and Bridgestone Potenza RE970AS Pole Position. - See more at: Symmetric, Asymmetric, Directional, Unidirectional - What Does This Mean? - Choose the Best Tires with Zig | Tire Rack
Or how about this from Michelin!
From Michelin "Proper use of directional tires:
Directional (Unidirectional) Tread Pattern
Once directional tires are worn greater than 50%, there is no negative effect of running them in a direction opposite to the indicated direction of rotation.
Operating directional tires from new to 50% worn in the opposite direction of that indicated on the tire will result in premature onset of irregular wear, excessive noise levels and significantly reduced tread life.
In any case, I realize I can not rotate my tires (without remounting).
Thanks for the info and discussion.
wrair
Last edited by Cee Jay; 02-18-2016 at 08:34 PM. Reason: sp
#18
Michelin tires, about the most worthless hunks of used recycled condoms on the market. I would never in a trillion evers trust anything they produced or said. They are only rated High because they refuse to publish most of the Negative Reviews on their own site. Believe me, I know. I would also seriously believe that they pay "inbiased" sites to only post positive reviews. Seriously. If (when) you crash because the Mushilins you bought either blew up or refused to hold the road, remember this comment.
At this time, the Michelin's on the JAG sure beat the Dunlop's that were on the front, but then the Dunlop's were way past replacement. If the back tires didn't have brand new Michelin's, I probably would have got something else.
The Michelin's on she who must be obeyed's XRS (20" rims, oem) are pretty good, too, I think.
My experience with Michelin's: n=5. I purchased the COSTCO's, Xs and for my old Intrigue (can't remember the model) based on Consumer Distorts presumably not influenced by Michelin (and also other sites input).
~wrair
#20
Cee Jay,
You are sort of right about bias ply and radial tires;
Never mix on the same axle.
You can mix bias with radials if you put the radials on the front, not the other way round. The reasoning being the the sidewall flex in the radials will cause understeer, which is preferable to bias on the front that will induce oversteer.
Now finding bias ply tires is difficult.
I've never heard any rules about not rotating radials to their other side of the car.
The only thing that I remember has changed over the years is, in the old days, if you bought two new tires, you put them on the front. The reasoning was steering and stopping was more important than traction. Now the new tires are installed on the rear, because in wet conditions if you aquaplane you slow down to regain steering control, but if the rear looses traction, your in a spin, and for most drivers it happens so suddenly it's not recoverable.
At least that's what this white haired old boy remembers.
Regards,
You are sort of right about bias ply and radial tires;
Never mix on the same axle.
You can mix bias with radials if you put the radials on the front, not the other way round. The reasoning being the the sidewall flex in the radials will cause understeer, which is preferable to bias on the front that will induce oversteer.
Now finding bias ply tires is difficult.
I've never heard any rules about not rotating radials to their other side of the car.
The only thing that I remember has changed over the years is, in the old days, if you bought two new tires, you put them on the front. The reasoning was steering and stopping was more important than traction. Now the new tires are installed on the rear, because in wet conditions if you aquaplane you slow down to regain steering control, but if the rear looses traction, your in a spin, and for most drivers it happens so suddenly it's not recoverable.
At least that's what this white haired old boy remembers.
Regards,