Obviously there are 2 sides to every story (if not more).

In cases like this we usually tell people to take the discussions offline and sort it out in private, rather than duke it out in public.

So with that in mind, we'll be watching this thread.

 

Eurocharged,

First, please identify yourself by name. Are you the owner, tuner? Would be nice to know who is responding on Eurocharged's behalf.

Second, can you please address what Max was saying about 8 different tunes and how the ECU may swap over to one of them for whatever reason? Do you agree with this possible tune swap and if so, how do you address the ECU doing so and thus negating the advantages of your tune? Is there a sure fire way to always stay on your tune or would we need to reflash multiple times a year?

I am very interested in a pulley/tune for my V8S and sent in a request for more information via your website link however there seems to be issues like the ECU tune swap that has me questioning if I should just leave the car stock.

Thanks,

Walt

 

While I would not want to condone any non-civil discourse I and probably others would like to see what those involved, on both sides, have to say.

Many of us here are very interested in modifications to our cars and as has been evidenced on this forum many times it has been difficult to find good tune options or empirical data to support them.

I do not think anyone is deliberately misleading but there are difinitely some concerns and someone has to have the answers.

 

I feel the same way, as a member of this forum I think it is an extremely interesting and technical topic, the outcome of which can benefit everyone.

In saying that, if the discussions turn the wrong way and are no longer civil then the thread will be locked.

Now that's out of the way, gentlemen please continue.

 

You want the guys name contact RSC... I'm not even going to get into this... I've posted all the dynos and everything I've been told...

Just look at the Dynos that alone tells you the car was not functioning correctly, and Jerry you wouldn't answer a call or return an email but now you have decided to.

And steal your tune, I could care less about something so petty, thank you for showing your true colors to me.

ALL I have ever wanted is a car that worked as stated... Now I finally have that, and documented the trouble I have gone through on the forum to get it. I'm the customer and you attack me. WOW amazing service.

Good day gentleman

 

Good morning Jaguar Forum members,

I have no intention to start a fight with these tuners, but I have clearly gone through and documented the work I've done on my car. So unless I have planned a 9 month rouse, I have nothing to prove. I'm not an ECM expert like these guys are and this post gave them the opportunity to explain to us what we all want to know. Instead they attack the person who has gone out there to try and find a resolution. Its cost me time and money and has been the most frustrating part of this car. Do I have all my facts correct, yes I do as far as I know with the information given to me. Are they technically perfect, I have no idea I don't tune cars for a living and for all I know have been bent over a barrel by all these guys. It’s time to for them to prove to us what’s going on and why I had problems that are very well documented.

As far as emails from to Jerry, hell yes I blasted RSC over my wheels and tune and I'm still upset that it’s taken this long to get a resolution, but they did step up and ask for another chance and it worked. I gave Jerry the same chance, and he ignored me and please show the emails... I have one where you mention all there tunes are fake. It took people asking for me to even say this but in the end I’m trying to help the forum members so they don’t go through what I did. I'm happy to send anything you like, really not much there, I've been pretty open about the entire process. The delays, the dynos, the feeling on and off the track… All with pictures, video and charts to boot. After Jerry finished my car the first time I sang his praises all over the forum. When I needed his assistance he turned his shoulder, and not once did I ask for a refund. I just parked the car as I was so frustrated. RSC offered me a solution and explained things that happened and apologized for the problems. I gave them a second chance, what was I supposed to do I was desperate. That chance worked, and I’m happy but still worried as it’s been a nightmare as customer trying to purchase a tune. Jerry I’m sure you’re a great guy with good intentions, but in this case the facts prove otherwise.. I have no hard feelings and have said so many times, but you turned your back on me when I had a problem and now accuse me of theft. That’s incomprehensible as a retailer.

So keep throwing rocks at your customer who took months of his time trying to get to the bottom of an issue, as it shows the way you run a business. Or explain where I am wrong as I and everyone would love to know, as its all we've ever wanted to know. I may have technically misspoken, but here’s your chance to educate us, it’s what we have been asking for, even before I joined the forum… There was never good evidence, before and after dynos all the unanswered questions from all the tuners. That’s why I embarked on this mission to get a tune that worked and worked for more than a few weeks. Your upset that people are questioning you, will if you had the right answers the conversation would be over in a few sentences.

Please read through ALL the post on various threads from myself and others. Even the guy you sent me to for the Dyno said he has heard of cars reverting to base tunes, and another member here had the same experience with another model Jaguar.

All the tuners have been given chances to explain tuning.. Instead you throw rocks instead of helping us and yourselves..


This is my last post on this topic, I've spent time, money and frustration on this. I hope this is not indicative of Jaguar ownership.

Cambo351 there is nothing for me to take offline, I’m satisfied with what I have a working 600HP Jag that took two tuners to correct. Both have which been paid in full and never asked for a dime from either, just a working tune.

End of the day no matter who did what you can't shift the focus from the well detailed and documented series of events. RSC first tuned my car and it didn't work, I see respected forum members singing the praises of Euro charged so I gave them a shot. Great initial result, had to send the ECM back once after 200 miles, got it back 200 miles later I'm back to stock dynoed power. I send Jerry a timeslip as soon as I got back form the track, and no response, I call hes busy, I call again and I get forwarded to voice mail where I leave a message.. No response. I send another email, where I'm told its impossible and to ship my car to Texas, knowing damn well I was never going to do that. Go back and look at my old threads I was ready to just go buy at GT3 but they had the engine fire issues so I decided not to make a stupid move on a car I've spent 10s of thousands on. Then RSC called and said they were having a Dyno tune day and they wanted their tuner to have a go at my car. The picture are on the thread, who cares about the man behind the keyboard. Call RSC and ask them, its their dyno tune day, and as a business no one has to turn over contacts, and for you to ask that is ridiculous. What matters here are the chain of events, and your absolute inability to respond to them and educate us. We are all ears and want to know the facts.

I wish you all a good day and hope we all learn something constructive as we have been BEGGING for this information for years.
Max

 

Max

You have done more to advance our knowledge of tunes than any tuner or any other member of the forum. Personally all I have is "thanks" for you. I agree that you had gone out of your way, far further with this issue than most would have. You are correct, you do not have the expertise to talk the tuner language so you do not need to engage in that kind of debate. Your proofs, presented through various testing methods leave little doubt about what happened.

 

Thank you Albert, I think I have been as fair and detailed as I possibly could. When I bought the car I was a bit shocked with the lack of knowledge available to us and want to help.

I've asked RSC to provide the tuners answers of what was wrong with my car and what they did. Mine wasn't the only one having the issue. Lets see what they have to say and hopefully we all can get a better understanding of our cars which is something we all want deserve for our hard earned money.

 

We don't really like to get dragged into mud slinging among forum sponsors and its unfortunate that the guys over at ECU Tuning Group and Eurocharged chose to take that path. I think its best for all parties that we just focus on the facts.

The Live Tune Mobile module is a departure from traditional tuning methods and may be disruptive to the status quo and as can be expected will invite skepticism and negativity especially from competitors. The facts are the facts: the product works, and makes power.

The ECU in question (Max's) was not stock although close to stock figures were found on the dyno. This however does not mean that the ECU was stock, nor that the ECU had suddenly reverted back to stock. The vehicle in question had the fault code P0601 (internal control module error) which has a multitude of causes. This in itself can cause checksum errors to be detected within the engine ECU when using OEM open diagnostic systems and is often caused by short circuit, again this could have been caused when the ECU was removed and connected or when the ECU was placed back in the vehicle. It had nothing to do with the engine software on the ECU directly as this would stop the engine running at all times. Which is one of the many benefits of a handheld Live Tune Mobile OB2 based unit that does not require ECU removal for tuning.

We have seen these cases before, mainly in Mercedes/Chrysler where this fault makes the car run stock even on a tuned engine and can be fixed (if you’re lucky) with a diagnostic clearance on the vehicle, but in the worst case scenario has meant the ECU needed to be replaced.

Now onto the programming, to do a full program on these ECU’s you would need to first read the data and then modify and upload that data but this isn’t the only way to tune. You are able to tune using a variety of diagnostic options that do not require a complete read and write and in these cases you can achieve quality gains depending on the vehicle. For obvious reasons we will not give away our secrets but this is not new in the tuning industry, we have simply mastered a way of making this possible on a variety of vehicles.

For Eurochaged to assert that we "stole" their tune is immature and inflammatory.

We hope that this provides enough information to put this issue to bed and wish everyone a safe and enjoyable weekend.

 

I just received a call from the tuner in the UK that was flown in to assist. After speaking with him, I know that there was indeed NOTHING WRONG WITH MY FILE. I will let him decide if he wants to post in this thread or not, but he has written most of the above text that RSC has posted. I have also met this gentleman in person at a tuning event in Birmingham, UK so we do know each other.

Here are a few quotes from Max that need to be addressed...

"The Eurocharged tune was still in place but not being used as it was not properly referenced in the "mapping table" in the ECM."

"Once he cleared the misfire, changed the checksum he found a problem in the Eurocharged tune."

"So please by all means they did a fine job but missed some steps that ALL tuners with Jags are missing as they are not the ones writing these tunes, but maybe modifying them."

These quotes above are insinuating that there is a problem with my file. However, according to the tuner that RSC had come into town, there is nothing wrong with my file.

Again, I have spoken with the tuner from the UK and he didn't change my file at all to fix the issue with the car.

Now that RSC, Max, and the UK tuner are all here, let’s get on the same page.

Please note that the UK tuner agreed to post if needed.

1. Was there a problem with my tune?

2. Could Eurocharged have prevented the issue with Max’s car?

3. Was there miscommunication somewhere that led to the incorrect statements I quoted above?

I operate a business that relies on sales. I understand that Max may have an issue with how I communicated with him. I’m not mad at Max; I simply want the truth to be told. If the lies continue, I will be forced to escalate this matter and pursue damages from all of the misinformation that is now well documented. This thread is about directing customers to RSC and away from Eurocharged. RSC was made out to be a hero in this whole situation due to misinformation that was given to Max and posted here. I have given everyone the opportunity to prove me wrong and provide facts that will prove what Max is saying is indeed correct.

William / Max – If you would like to speak on the phone regarding this, I’ll be happy to discuss it with you guys. I’m all for competition in the industry, but dragging my company through the mud will not be tolerated. Either provide the facts to document your claims or admit to the forum that the Eurocharged tune had no issues like previously stated. Please feel free to call the UK tuner and verify that he indeed called me and what we discussed. I appreciate what he did and it takes a good guy to reach out to me from the UK.

 

So is the verdict the tune was not working because of a fault code, and all that was needed was the fault to be cleared? Or did the tune need adjusting?

From Max's post #1 in this thread.

"You can get the ECM back to the primary tune by disconnecting the battery but as soon as it cross the parameters you are back to square one due to the check sum.."

"So to sum it up the adaptation was causing the problem and will continue to do so. He made a couple changes to the Eurocharged tune so we don't cross have the same problem again but if I do it will eventually revert back to the proper tune."

This information would be good to know.

 

I never said I had a problem with your tune its whats in my car now... Read all my posts I always said you have a good tune, but you skip the part in which my ECM was not using your tune, ask the tuner, read his post, look at me dyno results, look at my time slips.

I called you, sent you emails with time slips you blew me off, told me to ship the car to you and said what was happening was impossible. The tuner said otherwise, as obviously the car now works great.

What I can't understand is how you treated me, just read your own post. That's how you treat customers? Now you know who the guy is so I'm not making it up and I gave you the chance to make this right and you didn't. That's on you, as it was your choice to ignore me. I can't fix that and sorry that it came to this but I was pretty clear I was documenting all my mods and results on the forum. I had to as no one would ever answer our questions.

The entire issue was due to a fault that you could have had someone look at locally. You could have talked me threw it. Instead you ignored me and wrote that previous thread.

Yes I'm sure the tuner knows you he said he did, I even said that myself, if you would actually take the time to read all of my posts and not assume things.

Yes your in the tuning business, will I'm in the life business and don't let people walk all over me. I paid a fair price, for a product you installed but refused to support me with... Those are the facts and sometimes the truth hurts. You dropped the ball on someone who would have been a lifetime customer, and then personally attacked me.

 

As a potential customer not involved with this situation, I don't think Max's concerns were with your tune, in fact he has defended your tune multiple times and even said that your tune worked great up until the point it stop working, whether that had anything to do with your program was not the concern. The concern was your lack of response to Max's questions & issues with his car and/or tune when it stopped working. If this is incorrect then please defend this with an acknowledgement that you made every effort to make it right and provided a solution. That is what customer service is all about.

If there was nothing wrong with your file, then what did the UK tuner do to fix it?

I am not trying to stir anything up but again as an outside observer and potential client I would like to see some answers so I don't have to go through the same trial and error.

Thank you very much in advance for your follow up.

 

Matt-my car had this following error "fault code P0601 (internal control module error)", so it was not using Jerry's tune. So there is a reason the tune was not being utilized.

I communicated the issue and was blown off, I think you all can go back and see that fact.

Now as far as the changes, we made fuel changes as the car was a bit lean and changed the rear O2 sensor base values because of my 200 Cell cats.

Jerry - I'll say it again but please listen and not make an assumption. I hope you sell tunes to the end of time and love the one on my car. The problem is I had to pay two separate companies to get one tune to work. All you had to do was call me back with some ideas, ask me to read the codes etc.. Ignoring a customer and attacking them isn't good for business and your still blaming me. Do you realize NO one is attacking you, and you are being defensive instead of adding substance to the discussion.

 

I'm out of the office at lunch but will reply as soon as I get back.

Max, do I have permission to post copies of your emails to me and my replies?

 

Yup I saw that part, I was just wondering what it meant when you said something about "crossing the parameters and being back at square one", which I think implies your car returning back to the fault code even after it was cleared. Is that correct?

What parameters are you speaking of? Initially did you think this was a code caused by hard track use?

RSC is saying that code is generated by a short circuit of some type. With my tune and I thought with yours, it was tuned through the OBDII. I know my ECU was never removed when my car was tuned.

This is what is strange to me. Makes me wonder if your code was properly cleared, maybe it would have stayed cleared (even if U.K. tuner guy had not touched the tune)?

 

We can't seem to figure out why Eurocharged is insinuating that were dragging his company through the mud.

Further than that lets stick to the facts. Customer brought car to Eurocharged to tune vehicle.

Customer was not satisfied with performance of vehicle after tuning, and believed the tune was no longer installed.

Customer comes to us and asks for help because he could not attain proper support from Eurocharged.

All we did was try and help a fellow member of the jaguar community free of charge.

We will follow this up with a phone call to Jerry @ Eurocharged

 

So you mean this one, which is the last we ever had? Or the ones where I'm pissed and explaining my situation with RSC... This is not an acceptable reply to my problem... Or the one where you convinced me their tool was fake because it didn't work on an R8 you had in the shop.

Throw me under the bus all you want facts are facts you ignored me, so now you want to air out dirty laundry. So let me clear up the 10k that you mentioned. It had to do with an order of ADV 1 wheels that came in the wrong offset. Everyone here knows that. RSC did what they could to get a refund but I had to nearly sue ADV to get my money back. Thats 7k... My exhaust was a prototype so fitment wasn't perfect, it has been fixed. The last was the tune... I came to you as they had not figured out the issue and I didn't feel like waiting. Got a great tune and no service after the fact.

So now you want to continue to throw mud? I've been very clear on this forum with problem with an vendor including RSC, but at the end of the day who made it work?

Last email with Jerry----------------

What you’re saying is impossible. It’s a direct flash EEPROM and can’t write over itself.

You have to be hitting a protection limiter or something else that is keeping power down.

You can ship us the car and we can diagnose the issue, but it’s not losing the tune.


***** Please note that as of February 24th, 2014, Eurocharged Performance will be located in a new building. Our new address is 2121 Brittmoore Road, Suite 4700, Houston, TX 77043 *****

Jerry Thornton
Eurocharged Performance
Eurocharged Performance and Tuning- Exotic and European Tuning Specialists
(713) 462-1600 - Office
jerry@eurocharged.com


From: Max to:max
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:55 PM
To: Jerry Thornton
Subject: FW: Tune lost again

Good afternoon Jerry,

Any resolution on this? My car somehow has the stock Jag tune again for the second time and the car has not been to a dealer. I've called a few times as well and have not heard anything back so some information would be appreciated.

Thank you and have a good afternoon,
Max

From: Max
Sent: Thursday, June 5, 2014 12:11 AM
To: Jerry Thornton
Subject: Tune lost again

Hi Jerry,

I just got back from the track and the car is back to stock tune running 12.5s at 9lbs of boost max. No ones touched the car and I've only put a few hundred miles on it since I got the ecu back. Its seems to revert back to stock after a few hundred miles. Any ideas on what's happening, I've heard other cars reverting back but not the XKR. Please advise on what we need to do I'd love to get that tune to stick its perfect.

Have a good day,
Max

Sent from my Windows Phone

 

I had to ship the ECM back as the tune he did over the internet on the dyno stopped working. So I emailed him, boxed up my ECM and sent it in.. When I received it I put it in the car and it ran great for a week. Took it to the track that weekend same stock time... Then I sent that last email and was blown off.

You think someone tuning a car would check codes, and that code had been there for along time and I was never able to properly clear it. You need the Jag tools to do so, mine would erase it but it would come back.

Disconnecting the battery resets the ECM so eventually the code pops up and if it doesn't clear itself after a certain amount of time the ECM makes an adaptation. At least that's how I understand it. The code has not been back at all lately and I have no idea what caused it to begin with.

 

Matt- The parameters, yes I thought it may have exceeded some value while on the track as it stopped working the very next day.