Tune went back to stock again
#61
06-11-2014, 09:00 PM
Veteran Member
Something I have not seen addressed by anyone, including tuners, is Jaguar's adaptive ECU. If I am not mistaken, I believe the ECU readapts every 200 miles so that would be another explanation for why this happened to you when it did. The next question, which I fear the answer, is how do you disable this functionality? Regardless if this is your issue, it begs the question, how do tuners address adaptations? When I spoke with Eurocharged regarding a TCM remap and how those adaptations could be addressed, they said they had no way of working around it.
#62
06-11-2014, 09:13 PM
Veteran Member
I wish I could offer some help on this problem. However, if Eurocharged refuses to acknowledge the problem and offer some real help I would insist on a refund. Don't let them get away with poor consumer service and/or burning you out of your money--they'll keep doing it to everyone. You drive your car to get the most out of it and are most likely to know you lost your performance tune. Others may not realize they lost their tune because they mainly use their cars on the street. Also, other people with a tuned car may not drive their cars to the extremes you do and have not triggered a base map reprogramming. As Ngarara mentioned above, there should be some indication that the ECM reverted to the base map. We need a genuine Jaguar engineer to help us find a solution to this so your car will maintain the tuned map.
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MaximA (06-12-2014)
#63
06-11-2014, 09:16 PM
Veteran Member
Something I have not seen addressed by anyone, including tuners, is Jaguar's adaptive ECU. If I am not mistaken, I believe the ECU readapts every 200 miles so that would be another explanation for why this happened to you when it did. The next question, which I fear the answer, is how do you disable this functionality? Regardless if this is your issue, it begs the question, how do tuners address adaptations? When I spoke with Eurocharged regarding a TCM remap and how those adaptations could be addressed, they said they had no way of working around it.
Great question.
#64
06-12-2014, 08:31 AM
I think you may have found something, now I wonder what those triggers are. I'll check the car for codes when I get home but I don't believe it will have any as its not running the tuned. I need to check it for codes while its running a tune to see if some parameters are off.
Whats odd is it never even saw the track after this last reflash, I drove it maybe 250 miles in a month as it sat in the garage since I was so busy. Then I drove it for a week and within that week is when I noticed the difference. The first time it "reverted" back was after a track day and the car sat in the shop for a month while waiting on the Alcon calipers.
Whats odd is it never even saw the track after this last reflash, I drove it maybe 250 miles in a month as it sat in the garage since I was so busy. Then I drove it for a week and within that week is when I noticed the difference. The first time it "reverted" back was after a track day and the car sat in the shop for a month while waiting on the Alcon calipers.
#65
06-12-2014, 08:35 AM
I wish I could offer some help on this problem. However, if Eurocharged refuses to acknowledge the problem and offer some real help I would insist on a refund. Don't let them get away with poor consumer service and/or burning you out of your money--they'll keep doing it to everyone. You drive your car to get the most out of it and are most likely to know you lost your performance tune. Others may not realize they lost their tune because they mainly use their cars on the street. Also, other people with a tuned car may not drive their cars to the extremes you do and have not triggered a base map reprogramming. As Ngarara mentioned above, there should be some indication that the ECM reverted to the base map. We need a genuine Jaguar engineer to help us find a solution to this so your car will maintain the tuned map.
We really need a Jaguar engineer or factory ECU guru to confirm this.
#66
06-12-2014, 08:45 AM
Veteran Member
There are two triggers mentioned for reverting to base mapping, relating to the ECM not receiving sensor signals or not believing the signals it receives: loss of cam position signal, and 'implausible' signal from a knock sensor. There may well be others.
Regarding adaptions:
Regarding adaptions:
ECM Adaptions
The ECM has the ability to adapt the input values it uses to control certain outputs. This capability maintains engine refinement and ensures the engine emissions remain within the legislated limits. The components which have adaptions associated with them are:
The accelerator pedal position (APP) sensor
The heated oxygen sensors
The mass airflow & temp (MAFT) sensors
The crankshaft position (CKP) sensor
Electronic throttle.
Oxygen and MAFT Sensors
There are several adaptive maps associated with the fueling strategy. Within the fueling strategy the ECM calculates short- term adaptions and long term adaptions. The ECM will monitor the deterioration of the heated oxygen sensors over a period of time. It will also monitor the current correction associated with the sensors.
The ECM will store a fault code in circumstances where an adaption is forced to exceed its operating parameters. At the same time, the ECM will record the engine speed, engine load and intake air temperature.
Crankshaft Position Sensor
The characteristics of the signal supplied by the CKP sensor are learned by the ECM. This enables the ECM to set an adaption and support the engine misfire detection function. Due to the small variation between different drive plates and different CKP sensors, the adaption must be reset if either component is renewed, or removed and refitted. It is also necessary to reset the drive plate adaption if the ECM is renewed or replaced. The ECM supports four drive plate adaptions for the CKP sensor. Each adaption relates to a specific engine speed range. The engine speed ranges are detailed in the table below:
Adaption Engine Speed, rev/min
1 1800 - 3000
2 3001 - 3800
3 3801 - 4600
4 4601 - 5400
Misfire Detection
Legislation requires that the ECM must be able to detect the presence of an engine misfire. It must be able to detect misfires at two separate levels. The first level is a misfire that could lead to the legislated emissions limit being exceeded by a given amount. The second level is a misfire that may cause catalytic converter damage.
The ECM monitors the number of misfire occurrences within two engine speed ranges. If the ECM detects more than a predetermined number of misfire occurrences within either of these two ranges, over two consecutive journeys, it will record a fault code and details of the engine speed, engine load and engine coolant temperature. In addition, the ECM monitors the number of misfire occurrences that happen in a 'window' of 200 engine revolutions. The misfire occurrences are assigned a weighting according to their likely impact on the catalytic converters. If the number of misfires exceeds a given value, the ECM stores catalytic converter damage fault codes, along with the engine speed, engine load and engine coolant temperature.
The ECM has the ability to adapt the input values it uses to control certain outputs. This capability maintains engine refinement and ensures the engine emissions remain within the legislated limits. The components which have adaptions associated with them are:
The accelerator pedal position (APP) sensor
The heated oxygen sensors
The mass airflow & temp (MAFT) sensors
The crankshaft position (CKP) sensor
Electronic throttle.
Oxygen and MAFT Sensors
There are several adaptive maps associated with the fueling strategy. Within the fueling strategy the ECM calculates short- term adaptions and long term adaptions. The ECM will monitor the deterioration of the heated oxygen sensors over a period of time. It will also monitor the current correction associated with the sensors.
The ECM will store a fault code in circumstances where an adaption is forced to exceed its operating parameters. At the same time, the ECM will record the engine speed, engine load and intake air temperature.
Crankshaft Position Sensor
The characteristics of the signal supplied by the CKP sensor are learned by the ECM. This enables the ECM to set an adaption and support the engine misfire detection function. Due to the small variation between different drive plates and different CKP sensors, the adaption must be reset if either component is renewed, or removed and refitted. It is also necessary to reset the drive plate adaption if the ECM is renewed or replaced. The ECM supports four drive plate adaptions for the CKP sensor. Each adaption relates to a specific engine speed range. The engine speed ranges are detailed in the table below:
Adaption Engine Speed, rev/min
1 1800 - 3000
2 3001 - 3800
3 3801 - 4600
4 4601 - 5400
Misfire Detection
Legislation requires that the ECM must be able to detect the presence of an engine misfire. It must be able to detect misfires at two separate levels. The first level is a misfire that could lead to the legislated emissions limit being exceeded by a given amount. The second level is a misfire that may cause catalytic converter damage.
The ECM monitors the number of misfire occurrences within two engine speed ranges. If the ECM detects more than a predetermined number of misfire occurrences within either of these two ranges, over two consecutive journeys, it will record a fault code and details of the engine speed, engine load and engine coolant temperature. In addition, the ECM monitors the number of misfire occurrences that happen in a 'window' of 200 engine revolutions. The misfire occurrences are assigned a weighting according to their likely impact on the catalytic converters. If the number of misfires exceeds a given value, the ECM stores catalytic converter damage fault codes, along with the engine speed, engine load and engine coolant temperature.
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MaximA (06-12-2014)
#67
06-12-2014, 09:13 AM
#68
06-12-2014, 09:23 AM
Veteran Member
Seems to me we've been "guessing" a lot in the absence of hard evidence.
As I think about installing a tune, it is nothing more, really, than a flash-update to the base ECU program. Dealers flash updates all the times into our cars and those updates are designed to last and not revert. So, they must have a code written into the updates that ensures their permanency. No doubt, it is a "guarded, secret" code but, looks to me, that is what aftermarket flashes must contain to have it permanently accepted by the ECU.
As I think about installing a tune, it is nothing more, really, than a flash-update to the base ECU program. Dealers flash updates all the times into our cars and those updates are designed to last and not revert. So, they must have a code written into the updates that ensures their permanency. No doubt, it is a "guarded, secret" code but, looks to me, that is what aftermarket flashes must contain to have it permanently accepted by the ECU.
#69
06-12-2014, 09:52 AM
One thing about the factory updates is they will not change the fuel map, timing and boost limits that an aftermarket will. i have a feeling that if a factory update upset the balance of the engine function it would "adapt" as needed.
We are doing some guessing but what I just read aligns with what I was told. We do know ECU exists thats never been doubted, but the extent in which it intervenes and why is the question.
We are doing some guessing but what I just read aligns with what I was told. We do know ECU exists thats never been doubted, but the extent in which it intervenes and why is the question.
#70
06-12-2014, 06:40 PM
Senior Member
#71
06-13-2014, 07:17 AM
Veteran Member
At least for the younger 4.2 cars I have noticed that when the ECU detects a higher airflow then expected (for a certain RPM and Throttle position) it will revert back to an air flow (via throttle position) which it expects.
This will not leave any codes, so you will not find it that way. I expect that the 5.0 ECUs are more sophisticated, so they might even have more controls/checks, but also here I guess a similar behavior but somehow more permanent. So besides the lower power, you will not find any codes, and most possibly the modified maps will still be there.
But I am not so familiar with the 5.0 ECU, so can’t tell for sure what is happening there, so I would 1st to check if the tuned map has actually been gone or not. A next check could be to do a ECU reset, and see if the power is back again.
This will not leave any codes, so you will not find it that way. I expect that the 5.0 ECUs are more sophisticated, so they might even have more controls/checks, but also here I guess a similar behavior but somehow more permanent. So besides the lower power, you will not find any codes, and most possibly the modified maps will still be there.
But I am not so familiar with the 5.0 ECU, so can’t tell for sure what is happening there, so I would 1st to check if the tuned map has actually been gone or not. A next check could be to do a ECU reset, and see if the power is back again.
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MaximA (06-16-2014)
#72
06-13-2014, 07:20 AM
Max,
I hope all this works out for you. But I can't help wonder if somebody's sending you a message saying keep the engine and tune stock for your demanding track use. I knew I didn't want a tuner experimenting with their street tune to see if it would work for my track use. Well-developed tunes are common and proven in many communities while the Jaguar after-market in general seems to be still in the stone age when it comes to tunes.
Bruce
I hope all this works out for you. But I can't help wonder if somebody's sending you a message saying keep the engine and tune stock for your demanding track use. I knew I didn't want a tuner experimenting with their street tune to see if it would work for my track use. Well-developed tunes are common and proven in many communities while the Jaguar after-market in general seems to be still in the stone age when it comes to tunes.
Bruce
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MaximA (06-16-2014)
#73
06-14-2014, 12:02 PM
What, if anything, has Jags said on this topic? I have not seen ETS mentioned anywhere. His tunes are what I call reasonable tunes. My gut is just as has been mentioned in here several times --> A tune on the ragged edge......and definitely outside the parameters needed for a street car that sees track duty. This is precisely why, for years, track guys go faster with suspension tuning etc, and the motor is the LAST thing to get radical with. Also the VAST majority of breakdowns I see at track days are cars with excessively juiced up motors. Just some thoughts but be careful not to fall into using HP as a substitute for talent. (Notice I am not a drag racer!!) I read this thread with great curiosity as the owner of a tuned vehicle but I guess I have little to worry about as even if the wife takes the XK to track , she won't be flogging the car as I would. Interesting thread!!
#74
06-14-2014, 12:46 PM
Veteran Member
What, if anything, has Jags said on this topic? I have not seen ETS mentioned anywhere. His tunes are what I call reasonable tunes. My gut is just as has been mentioned in here several times --> A tune on the ragged edge......and definitely outside the parameters needed for a street car that sees track duty. This is precisely why, for years, track guys go faster with suspension tuning etc, and the motor is the LAST thing to get radical with. Also the VAST majority of breakdowns I see at track days are cars with excessively juiced up motors. Just some thoughts but be careful not to fall into using HP as a substitute for talent. (Notice I am not a drag racer!!) I read this thread with great curiosity as the owner of a tuned vehicle but I guess I have little to worry about as even if the wife takes the XK to track , she won't be flogging the car as I would. Interesting thread!!
Would like to see other tuners such as ETG, etc. put their heads together to help the community.
#75
06-14-2014, 12:49 PM
ud
Although tunes and greater HP are consumer desired modifications, these type of mods are furthest from the minds of design engineers and automotive engineers.
Tunes and Mods subvert the intended use of the product and invariably lead to product failure. I agree that they are fun to have, however they eclipse the safety parameters of the vehicle's intended use and longevity.
By reverting the ECU back to stock the engineers have insured the powertrain will not be destroyed by a consumer that will blame the products demise on the factory.
I am not saying Max is in that category of pointing the dirty end of the stick at the factory. However, THere have been instances where vehicle owners, through the owner's ignorance, abuse, negligence and indifference has caused vehicles to destroy them selves.
Case in point: overheating of the car engine after ignoring a coolant warning light for an hour. Although vehicle manufacturers can provide a safety measure to shut down a car if the engine is on the verge of over heating, they will not do that. Why? Because they sell cars on the basis that a cautious car owner will not ignore warning lights and will take prudent action before a vehicle self destructs
This type of individual invariably blames everyone, but himself, for the vehicle failure. He then bad mouths mechanics, engineers, brand, and anyone else he can throw mud on.
In the final analysis, ECU safety measures punish knowledgeable people, such as Max, because of the stupidity and arrogance of less evolved car owners
Tunes and Mods subvert the intended use of the product and invariably lead to product failure. I agree that they are fun to have, however they eclipse the safety parameters of the vehicle's intended use and longevity.
By reverting the ECU back to stock the engineers have insured the powertrain will not be destroyed by a consumer that will blame the products demise on the factory.
I am not saying Max is in that category of pointing the dirty end of the stick at the factory. However, THere have been instances where vehicle owners, through the owner's ignorance, abuse, negligence and indifference has caused vehicles to destroy them selves.
Case in point: overheating of the car engine after ignoring a coolant warning light for an hour. Although vehicle manufacturers can provide a safety measure to shut down a car if the engine is on the verge of over heating, they will not do that. Why? Because they sell cars on the basis that a cautious car owner will not ignore warning lights and will take prudent action before a vehicle self destructs
This type of individual invariably blames everyone, but himself, for the vehicle failure. He then bad mouths mechanics, engineers, brand, and anyone else he can throw mud on.
In the final analysis, ECU safety measures punish knowledgeable people, such as Max, because of the stupidity and arrogance of less evolved car owners
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MaximA (06-16-2014)
#76
06-14-2014, 02:09 PM
Seems to me the "overheating" horse has been sufficiently flogged to let it rest in peace.
I have had several cars over the years with tunes that "subvert" those cars' intended use, and yet neither those cars nor those tunes have "failed". Simply depends on the tune--if it works within safety and engineering parameters inherent in both the brains and mechanics of the car, then it is just fine.
I think Bruce H. is right, though, in that the market for Jag tunes is almost infinitesimally small compared to the markets for tunes for much more common cars. That suggests that the latter tunes will be more bulletproof than the former.
I have had several cars over the years with tunes that "subvert" those cars' intended use, and yet neither those cars nor those tunes have "failed". Simply depends on the tune--if it works within safety and engineering parameters inherent in both the brains and mechanics of the car, then it is just fine.
I think Bruce H. is right, though, in that the market for Jag tunes is almost infinitesimally small compared to the markets for tunes for much more common cars. That suggests that the latter tunes will be more bulletproof than the former.
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sklimii (06-14-2014)
#77
06-14-2014, 02:31 PM
Veteran Member
OBD II App for Android
I got my little Bluetooth unit for monitoring OBD II parameters using my Samsung S4 phone. It seems to work superbly. Total cost, $12 for the OBD adapter and $5 for the Torque Pro app from the android app store.
You can swipe between 15 different display windows. Each window can display 6 parameters in different sizes. I got 5 windows set up now to monitor Engine and Transmission temperatures, Boost and AFR (Air Fuel mixture) RPM, Speed, Voltage and Smog parameters and acceleration times for 0-60 and 1/4 miles.
Built a phone holder from minicell foam that goes on top of the steering column and held in place by pinching the soft foam under the dash and the adjustable steering column. Works well, does not go anywhere and it took 5 minutes to make. From my driving position the only blocked view is the lower end of the info screen where I do not see the fuel gauge. If I wish I can display the fuel levels on the phone, as well.
The app also lets you set upper limits for parameters, such as coolant, at which point it will alarm. Very easy to use.
Some pictures are attached.
You can swipe between 15 different display windows. Each window can display 6 parameters in different sizes. I got 5 windows set up now to monitor Engine and Transmission temperatures, Boost and AFR (Air Fuel mixture) RPM, Speed, Voltage and Smog parameters and acceleration times for 0-60 and 1/4 miles.
Built a phone holder from minicell foam that goes on top of the steering column and held in place by pinching the soft foam under the dash and the adjustable steering column. Works well, does not go anywhere and it took 5 minutes to make. From my driving position the only blocked view is the lower end of the info screen where I do not see the fuel gauge. If I wish I can display the fuel levels on the phone, as well.
The app also lets you set upper limits for parameters, such as coolant, at which point it will alarm. Very easy to use.
Some pictures are attached.
Last edited by axr6; 06-14-2014 at 02:40 PM.
#78
06-15-2014, 06:51 AM
Veteran Member
#79
06-15-2014, 06:13 PM
Veteran Member
JAGUAR XK - XKR 2006 - 2012 WORKSHOP SERVICE REPAIR MANUAL - X150 | eBay
#80
06-16-2014, 11:54 AM
Veteran Member