What a piece of sh1t!!
#21
01-19-2012, 04:54 PM
Dumb/Luck,
That's fine, when one buys a second-hand vehicle, one cannot expect that it will be trouble free. When one purchases a mass production new vehicle, one pays the premium in price with the expectation that it will be reasonably trouble free for the first years and that is not an unreasonable expectation. That is why the USA passed the ‘Lemon Laws” in the first place, to pull Manufacturers & Dealers into line with reasonable expectations of Consumers.
I’m no kid, so I can recall when car manufacturers gave 5000 & then 12000 mile guarantees, and then only on the drive chain. Back then if trim fell off or a knob broke, the consumer was on their own. Those days are long gone. Changing attitudes by Governments towards consumer laws and consumer rights advocates like Ralph Nader did put pressure on the manufacturers, and the advent of some manufacturers providing better warranties and using them to promote their products as ‘reliable’ forced the rest of the manufacturers to follow suit. The classic example would be the Japanese cars: when they first appeared in western markets, they had dreadful reliability & life problems. But by the 70’s, Toyota were promoting their product as the cheapest to run per mile, and the most reliable car on the road. There can be no argument that they set a standard to which all others had to aspire in order to maintain their market share.
The buyer of any Marque of new car is entitled to believe, and indeed has the Legal Right to expect that the vehicle of their choice will provide reliable and reasonably trouble free motoring until at least the expiry of the Warranty. That is not nor would be, in my opinion, an unreasonable expectation even if it wasn’t written in to Law.
When one forks out big money to purchase what is promoted as a Prestige Motor Vehicle, and instead of getting pleasure from driving it, gets mainly to drive it to & from the dealership while driving a rental or similar while the damned thing is (supposedly) being 'repaired' have every reason to be thoroughly ‘pissed off’ when they have troubles with the vehicle. Nothing is perfect, and the occasional failure, frustrating as it is, is going to happen. That’s fine, that’s what Warranties are for.
But when you read just some of the myriad of stories and the attitudes & treatment that consumers receive from far too many dealers, one has to acknowledge that they have perfect reason to be grumpy & disillusioned. In all fairness, would you have just laid down and accepted that kind of treatment from your Ford Dealer(s) if you had experienced similar troubles and failures during the time you were running them? I doubt it.
Your point about the inherent value of buying a sound older vehicle has merit, but it also (as you point out) carries the risk of catastrophic failure attached to it. The difference between it and a new vehicle is the acceptance of that risk, and of course, the lower price which you pay for accepting that risk. That is your choice, and I for one do not disagree with it.
My point in my thread was to highlight that us Jag (& Landrover/Range Rover as associated companies) owners trials & tribulations don’t come close to holding a candle stub to those of the owners of Mercedes Benz product, if that Forum that I stumbled across is anything to go by. The tale that I pasted is only a very small & simple one compared to those which one can read by following the link in my thread. We can be very grateful for Small Mercies under the circumstances.
I’ve reattached that thread for those who would like to read some real horror stories to help them feel better about our beloved Jags.
(Mercedes Benz SL Class Lemon Problems)?
Brutal, if you haven’t yet, have a look mate.
Cheers,
Languid
That's fine, when one buys a second-hand vehicle, one cannot expect that it will be trouble free. When one purchases a mass production new vehicle, one pays the premium in price with the expectation that it will be reasonably trouble free for the first years and that is not an unreasonable expectation. That is why the USA passed the ‘Lemon Laws” in the first place, to pull Manufacturers & Dealers into line with reasonable expectations of Consumers.
I’m no kid, so I can recall when car manufacturers gave 5000 & then 12000 mile guarantees, and then only on the drive chain. Back then if trim fell off or a knob broke, the consumer was on their own. Those days are long gone. Changing attitudes by Governments towards consumer laws and consumer rights advocates like Ralph Nader did put pressure on the manufacturers, and the advent of some manufacturers providing better warranties and using them to promote their products as ‘reliable’ forced the rest of the manufacturers to follow suit. The classic example would be the Japanese cars: when they first appeared in western markets, they had dreadful reliability & life problems. But by the 70’s, Toyota were promoting their product as the cheapest to run per mile, and the most reliable car on the road. There can be no argument that they set a standard to which all others had to aspire in order to maintain their market share.
The buyer of any Marque of new car is entitled to believe, and indeed has the Legal Right to expect that the vehicle of their choice will provide reliable and reasonably trouble free motoring until at least the expiry of the Warranty. That is not nor would be, in my opinion, an unreasonable expectation even if it wasn’t written in to Law.
When one forks out big money to purchase what is promoted as a Prestige Motor Vehicle, and instead of getting pleasure from driving it, gets mainly to drive it to & from the dealership while driving a rental or similar while the damned thing is (supposedly) being 'repaired' have every reason to be thoroughly ‘pissed off’ when they have troubles with the vehicle. Nothing is perfect, and the occasional failure, frustrating as it is, is going to happen. That’s fine, that’s what Warranties are for.
But when you read just some of the myriad of stories and the attitudes & treatment that consumers receive from far too many dealers, one has to acknowledge that they have perfect reason to be grumpy & disillusioned. In all fairness, would you have just laid down and accepted that kind of treatment from your Ford Dealer(s) if you had experienced similar troubles and failures during the time you were running them? I doubt it.
Your point about the inherent value of buying a sound older vehicle has merit, but it also (as you point out) carries the risk of catastrophic failure attached to it. The difference between it and a new vehicle is the acceptance of that risk, and of course, the lower price which you pay for accepting that risk. That is your choice, and I for one do not disagree with it.
My point in my thread was to highlight that us Jag (& Landrover/Range Rover as associated companies) owners trials & tribulations don’t come close to holding a candle stub to those of the owners of Mercedes Benz product, if that Forum that I stumbled across is anything to go by. The tale that I pasted is only a very small & simple one compared to those which one can read by following the link in my thread. We can be very grateful for Small Mercies under the circumstances.
I’ve reattached that thread for those who would like to read some real horror stories to help them feel better about our beloved Jags.
(Mercedes Benz SL Class Lemon Problems)?
Brutal, if you haven’t yet, have a look mate.
Cheers,
Languid
#22
01-19-2012, 07:36 PM
You posted this in my thread...
"You might not be an XK/XKR match if you expect the switchgear to reflect the overall quality of the car; especially the gear selector, its a rubbish, cheap *** plastic piece of garbage."
I'm hoping to closely examine a 2011 to see just how bad they are that someone would condemn them so forcefully. The 2010 switchgear seems very good, and it's disturbing to learn it went all to heck the following year. Perhaps other 2011 owners will chime in with their findings.
Bruce
"You might not be an XK/XKR match if you expect the switchgear to reflect the overall quality of the car; especially the gear selector, its a rubbish, cheap *** plastic piece of garbage."
I'm hoping to closely examine a 2011 to see just how bad they are that someone would condemn them so forcefully. The 2010 switchgear seems very good, and it's disturbing to learn it went all to heck the following year. Perhaps other 2011 owners will chime in with their findings.
Bruce
Look all I'm saying is that I think that switch is poor quality - just a subjective rant in what i thought was safe place.
My Vogue has a completely different feel to it. The selector in my XK-R feels almost oxidised (i'm not a metallurgist so dont know if Aluminium oxidises?) and rough and a pretty crappy feel.
It looks nothing like the Picture in the post (of an evoque selector, I think) and if it did i wouldnt have made a comment.
Once again, not slagging the brand or anything like that, although i will reserve the right to do that if warranted, just voicing an opinion; as stated one mans trash is another's treasure.
#23
01-19-2012, 07:57 PM
Dumb/Luck,
That's fine, when one buys a second-hand vehicle, one cannot expect that it will be trouble free. When one purchases a mass production new vehicle, one pays the premium in price with the expectation that it will be reasonably trouble free for the first years and that is not an unreasonable expectation. That is why the USA passed the ‘Lemon Laws” in the first place, to pull Manufacturers & Dealers into line with reasonable expectations of Consumers.
I’m no kid, so I can recall when car manufacturers gave 5000 & then 12000 mile guarantees, and then only on the drive chain. Back then if trim fell off or a knob broke, the consumer was on their own. Those days are long gone. Changing attitudes by Governments towards consumer laws and consumer rights advocates like Ralph Nader did put pressure on the manufacturers, and the advent of some manufacturers providing better warranties and using them to promote their products as ‘reliable’ forced the rest of the manufacturers to follow suit. The classic example would be the Japanese cars: when they first appeared in western markets, they had dreadful reliability & life problems. But by the 70’s, Toyota were promoting their product as the cheapest to run per mile, and the most reliable car on the road. There can be no argument that they set a standard to which all others had to aspire in order to maintain their market share.
The buyer of any Marque of new car is entitled to believe, and indeed has the Legal Right to expect that the vehicle of their choice will provide reliable and reasonably trouble free motoring until at least the expiry of the Warranty. That is not nor would be, in my opinion, an unreasonable expectation even if it wasn’t written in to Law.
When one forks out big money to purchase what is promoted as a Prestige Motor Vehicle, and instead of getting pleasure from driving it, gets mainly to drive it to & from the dealership while driving a rental or similar while the damned thing is (supposedly) being 'repaired' have every reason to be thoroughly ‘pissed off’ when they have troubles with the vehicle. Nothing is perfect, and the occasional failure, frustrating as it is, is going to happen. That’s fine, that’s what Warranties are for.
But when you read just some of the myriad of stories and the attitudes & treatment that consumers receive from far too many dealers, one has to acknowledge that they have perfect reason to be grumpy & disillusioned. In all fairness, would you have just laid down and accepted that kind of treatment from your Ford Dealer(s) if you had experienced similar troubles and failures during the time you were running them? I doubt it.
Your point about the inherent value of buying a sound older vehicle has merit, but it also (as you point out) carries the risk of catastrophic failure attached to it. The difference between it and a new vehicle is the acceptance of that risk, and of course, the lower price which you pay for accepting that risk. That is your choice, and I for one do not disagree with it.
My point in my thread was to highlight that us Jag (& Landrover/Range Rover as associated companies) owners trials & tribulations don’t come close to holding a candle stub to those of the owners of Mercedes Benz product, if that Forum that I stumbled across is anything to go by. The tale that I pasted is only a very small & simple one compared to those which one can read by following the link in my thread. We can be very grateful for Small Mercies under the circumstances.
I’ve reattached that thread for those who would like to read some real horror stories to help them feel better about our beloved Jags.
(Mercedes Benz SL Class Lemon Problems)?
Brutal, if you haven’t yet, have a look mate.
Cheers,
Languid
That's fine, when one buys a second-hand vehicle, one cannot expect that it will be trouble free. When one purchases a mass production new vehicle, one pays the premium in price with the expectation that it will be reasonably trouble free for the first years and that is not an unreasonable expectation. That is why the USA passed the ‘Lemon Laws” in the first place, to pull Manufacturers & Dealers into line with reasonable expectations of Consumers.
I’m no kid, so I can recall when car manufacturers gave 5000 & then 12000 mile guarantees, and then only on the drive chain. Back then if trim fell off or a knob broke, the consumer was on their own. Those days are long gone. Changing attitudes by Governments towards consumer laws and consumer rights advocates like Ralph Nader did put pressure on the manufacturers, and the advent of some manufacturers providing better warranties and using them to promote their products as ‘reliable’ forced the rest of the manufacturers to follow suit. The classic example would be the Japanese cars: when they first appeared in western markets, they had dreadful reliability & life problems. But by the 70’s, Toyota were promoting their product as the cheapest to run per mile, and the most reliable car on the road. There can be no argument that they set a standard to which all others had to aspire in order to maintain their market share.
The buyer of any Marque of new car is entitled to believe, and indeed has the Legal Right to expect that the vehicle of their choice will provide reliable and reasonably trouble free motoring until at least the expiry of the Warranty. That is not nor would be, in my opinion, an unreasonable expectation even if it wasn’t written in to Law.
When one forks out big money to purchase what is promoted as a Prestige Motor Vehicle, and instead of getting pleasure from driving it, gets mainly to drive it to & from the dealership while driving a rental or similar while the damned thing is (supposedly) being 'repaired' have every reason to be thoroughly ‘pissed off’ when they have troubles with the vehicle. Nothing is perfect, and the occasional failure, frustrating as it is, is going to happen. That’s fine, that’s what Warranties are for.
But when you read just some of the myriad of stories and the attitudes & treatment that consumers receive from far too many dealers, one has to acknowledge that they have perfect reason to be grumpy & disillusioned. In all fairness, would you have just laid down and accepted that kind of treatment from your Ford Dealer(s) if you had experienced similar troubles and failures during the time you were running them? I doubt it.
Your point about the inherent value of buying a sound older vehicle has merit, but it also (as you point out) carries the risk of catastrophic failure attached to it. The difference between it and a new vehicle is the acceptance of that risk, and of course, the lower price which you pay for accepting that risk. That is your choice, and I for one do not disagree with it.
My point in my thread was to highlight that us Jag (& Landrover/Range Rover as associated companies) owners trials & tribulations don’t come close to holding a candle stub to those of the owners of Mercedes Benz product, if that Forum that I stumbled across is anything to go by. The tale that I pasted is only a very small & simple one compared to those which one can read by following the link in my thread. We can be very grateful for Small Mercies under the circumstances.
I’ve reattached that thread for those who would like to read some real horror stories to help them feel better about our beloved Jags.
(Mercedes Benz SL Class Lemon Problems)?
Brutal, if you haven’t yet, have a look mate.
Cheers,
Languid
I'm still confused - although not to any extent that i need further explanation - as to how a semi jocular (hence some of my language) morphed into a Warranty/ Expectations/ lemon Law/ Second hand v new/ Jag v MB/ dealers integrity/ your oldman off to the war/ the right of the individual etc etc Yadda Yadda.
You'll hopefully have deciphered that I'm Scottish (1st); I'm also a fiercely proud 'new' Australian(2nd) - what has that to do with it i hear you ask? I have a sense of humour and it was perhaps lost too deepmy post of weds evening. C'mon, here we, one assumes some fairly successful people amongst us (if not all) and we're banging on about paddle shifters, mesh bloody grilles, gear selectors and f'ing fuse19! I just thought id rant about the feel of my shifter thats all. I had no intent of offending anyone. Of course effect is waaayyy different to intent, so, to those that i did, I apologise. But these are all 1st world problems right; i hope we all agree on that?
I'll be more careful in future.
Take care Mr Languid
Last edited by Ha66is; 01-19-2012 at 07:59 PM. Reason: My typing skills are rubbish.
#24
01-21-2012, 10:15 AM
Senior Member
My 2007 XK Coupe is the best Jag I have ever owned in 52 years!! Of course I don't that silly gearshift knob!
I second the comment that it would really be nice if folks could write plain understandable English ( UK, US and even Aussie!)
Finally be NICE or kept it to yourself, please.................
Adrian
I second the comment that it would really be nice if folks could write plain understandable English ( UK, US and even Aussie!)
Finally be NICE or kept it to yourself, please.................
Adrian
#25
01-21-2012, 02:19 PM
Veteran Member
#26
01-21-2012, 02:53 PM
Bruce
#28
01-21-2012, 06:42 PM
Yup, thats the one, feels rubbish IMHO. My vogue's is like below (without the coloured Top).
Thats more like it.
Thats more like it.
#30
01-22-2012, 06:38 AM
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