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jahummer,
I am the member who reglued, restretched, and STAPLED the leather down with the dash removed. The Jaguar dashes are not stapled but only glued down and the overlap is so small that it doesn't wrap around the bottom lip but just covers it. No adhesive on earth will hold leather to foam through temperature changes and actual shrinkage of the leather. Of course, the leather can be restretched, but without anchoring the leather to the dash BOARD via stapling the leather in to the face of the hard surface (the lip in front of the windshield and all the way around the center speaker underneath the grill) it is destined to keep happening. My car has never been garaged since I've owned it, is subjected to many, many days of 100F+ temperatures, and the problem has not returned. My dash was taken out for repair so that I could have it done while I was having other body customization work done at the same time. I can absolutely tell you without reservation, that the work could have been done with the windshield removed and the stretching, glueing, and STAPLING!!! accomplished from the front. I did not want to see the staples on the edge, and frankly Jaguar was so shortsighted that they didn't provide even a quarter of an inch to wrap around the bottom so that if you did remove the dash you could staple it on the underside, so I ordered a small 1/2" leather foldover braid that matched the leather color perfectly, and I glued it to the edge against the windshield covering the staples. You would never know it's there. The plastic defroster vents are the only problem as they are very fragile and will typically crack. We glued mine back together, and yes if you look from outside the windshield in, very closely, you can make out a few hairline cracks, but you would have to look very hard, and you can't see them from inside the car. I have no ripples, and by the way, I can feel around the complex curves of the dash to the left and right of the speaker where it comes down to the front, that the adhesive is not still attached in all places, but with the stapling and anchoring of all of the leather, there are no areas that don't look perfect. Additionally, when I bought my car, the cover over the passenger airbag was not even attached any longer, if flapped around like a slice of baloney and had disconnected from the lip next to the glass entirely. Stapling and anchoring the leather to the frame has made it look new. On my 2002 XKR, Safelite replace my front windshield for about $225 or so including the glass, so if they were just to remove the glass and then put it back after an upholsterer puts a new layer of adhesive and staples the edges down, I would sincerely doubt it would be more than $150.00 labor.
checked recent Manheim auctions and found this from the Palm Beach auction here in Florida, just a few days ago: 2007 JAGUAR XK CONVERTIBLE 05/12/16 - PALM BCH - sold for $25,600 - Odometer 22,145 - Above Average Condition - Color BLACK
KBB actually says the "fair" trade on value for this car is from $19200-$22200 and good bumps it to $23600, so I am not sure where you got $17K from.
Regardless black book auction is what most dealers use as a guide.
I find the Nada Guide pretty good too - though it seems like the Manheim auction one sold at near full retail so they must have still felt like they could mark it up a quick $5K+ and resell - and that is seemingly true based on what we've seen.
jahummer,
I am the member who reglued, restretched, and STAPLED the leather down with the dash removed. The Jaguar dashes are not stapled but only glued down and the overlap is so small that it doesn't wrap around the bottom lip but just covers it. No adhesive on earth will hold leather to foam through temperature changes and actual shrinkage of the leather. Of course, the leather can be restretched, but without anchoring the leather to the dash BOARD via stapling the leather in to the face of the hard surface (the lip in front of the windshield and all the way around the center speaker underneath the grill) it is destined to keep happening. My car has never been garaged since I've owned it, is subjected to many, many days of 100F+ temperatures, and the problem has not returned. My dash was taken out for repair so that I could have it done while I was having other body customization work done at the same time. I can absolutely tell you without reservation, that the work could have been done with the windshield removed and the stretching, glueing, and STAPLING!!! accomplished from the front. I did not want to see the staples on the edge, and frankly Jaguar was so shortsighted that they didn't provide even a quarter of an inch to wrap around the bottom so that if you did remove the dash you could staple it on the underside, so I ordered a small 1/2" leather foldover braid that matched the leather color perfectly, and I glued it to the edge against the windshield covering the staples. You would never know it's there. The plastic defroster vents are the only problem as they are very fragile and will typically crack. We glued mine back together, and yes if you look from outside the windshield in, very closely, you can make out a few hairline cracks, but you would have to look very hard, and you can't see them from inside the car. I have no ripples, and by the way, I can feel around the complex curves of the dash to the left and right of the speaker where it comes down to the front, that the adhesive is not still attached in all places, but with the stapling and anchoring of all of the leather, there are no areas that don't look perfect. Additionally, when I bought my car, the cover over the passenger airbag was not even attached any longer, if flapped around like a slice of baloney and had disconnected from the lip next to the glass entirely. Stapling and anchoring the leather to the frame has made it look new. On my 2002 XKR, Safelite replace my front windshield for about $225 or so including the glass, so if they were just to remove the glass and then put it back after an upholsterer puts a new layer of adhesive and staples the edges down, I would sincerely doubt it would be more than $150.00 labor.
Tberg, you are categorically correct and jahummer is grossly misinformed. Windshield is one of the few things you can replace with a positive outcome. Had to do it on a M6, it was one of the first in the country and at a time no one had heard of rain-sensing windshield. To my shock the one they put on from safelite was identical, sans the rock chips. (which a car driven on even one highway trip can get)
Last edited by Queen and Country; 05-26-2016 at 09:54 AM.
I find the Nada Guide pretty good too - though it seems like the Manheim auction one sold at near full retail so they must have still felt like they could mark it up a quick $5K+ and resell - and that is seemingly true based on what we've seen.
Koko, I will call a spade a spade, because I rather be honest and save time than pussyfoot around. Jahummer means well but has no clue what the wholesale prices should be, nor where in the food-chain a car should be bought. Buying from something like autonation is one step above a buy-here-pay-here lot.
My thought process is:
A life of a preowned Jaguar begins first with a Private Party, then at a Jaguar Dealer, then Auction, then Large car chain (carmax) then finance-here lots.
The further up the chain you go- the lower the markups and the better the car. Your ideal situation is going to be a dealer who talks an owner into selling his prized car for something even higher. (these are the best values and cars) Second will be auction. Third will be private party. Fourth will Jaguar Dealer who has taken one in.
A 2007 that comes to a Jag dealer will get auctioned most likely, because they cant sell it under the CPO program. Unless they have significant margin and its a good car they will keep it.
A private party that hasnt sold it at a dealer is usually someone who disagrees with what the wholesale price they were offered. So not always the best bet. I bought mine from a PP because I was looking for a very specific car and willing to pay the premium. One of the premiums I paid was the fact that it had over 20,000 miles on it, for being a couple of years old. (a dealer would have not kept that on the lot and probably offered him too little for the excessive mileage). In hindsight, I paid more for less. i.e. the exact reason he did not trade-in.
Tberg, you are categorically correct and jahummer is grossly misinformed. Windshield is one of the few things you can replace with a positive outcome. Had to do it on a M6, it was one of the first in the country and at a time no one had heard of rain-sensing windshield. To my shock the one the put on from safelite was identical, sans the rock chips. (which a car driven on even one highway trip can get)
Sorry, but you can't call experience being misinformed, been there done that with a windshield from Safelite, never again. Before you jump to conclusions, you need why that statement was made.
Pulling the windshield is NOT how Jaguar intructs you to do the dash.
Koko, I will call a spade a spade, because I rather be honest and save time than pussyfoot around. Jahummer means well but has no clue what the wholesale prices should be, nor where in the food-chain a car should be bought. Buying from something like autonation is one step above a buy-here-pay-here lot.
Another assumption on your part. You do not know me or my experience buying and selling cars at auction, wholesale and retail.
Another assumption on your part. You do not know me or my experience buying and selling cars at auction, wholesale and retail.
I wish it wasnt the case, the data I have from this thread is not in your favor.
'Buy from a dealer who cant be bothered to fix a grotesque dash who is selling at full retail.'
'Never buy a car with a windshield replaced.'
'Tradein value in fair condition is $19-22k'
Sorry but the last line tells me that you are innocent or you work for the dealer.
I bet money they gave around $12-14K for the trade in if not $10K. (which is what the actual book value is for a car that needs a top, dash, tires and brakes)
I wish it wasnt the case, the data I have from this thread is not in your favor.
'Tradein value in fair condition is $19-22k'
Sorry but the last line tells me that you are innocent or you work for the dealer.
I bet money they gave around $12-14K for the trade in if not $10K. (which is what the actual book value is for a car that needs a top, dash, tires and brakes)
I never said the trade in value was X, I said KBB said what the trade in value was, but as I said, not only are these "guides" but most dealers use local auction prices. I even copied Manheim auctions from the past few weeks and posted here one almost identical to this car that went for over $25k.
Here a screen shot, empirical data which by the way I have yet to see you provide.
As far as what $ they put on the car, if you think you know, you are sadly mistaken. Only the dealer knows that number and frankly it is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is what they sell it for.
Your comments indicate you think resellers should sell cars for free and that they have no overhead or expenses. In the real world that is neither reasonable nor realistic.
No, I do not work for the dealership nor any other dealership. As I have said before I have decades of experience buying cars at wholesale. But that is not what I do for a living, it is just a hobby.
You make a lot of assumptions with your comments, I do not. But if I was to make one, I would have to assume based on what I see you post the only thing you do sit on the internet and pretend to be something you are not.
No assumptions. Black Book value and the value autonation themselves give is $11k to $18k. If you use the trade-in calculator on their site and use the vin number of their own car you get $11-$18K!!
I went to a dealer and saw them changing out a dash and inquired about margins and so on.
You are the one who is comfortably assuming the KBB has any bearing on dealer prices.
I did miss your post. Mea culpa
Disagree with you. I have never seen a well kept Jaguar whose leather dash was bubbling. Only cars exposed to the brutal elements. Wait till the armourall wears off the other rubber and plastic parts, they would have suffered the same torture.
Well, again from my personal experience, I posted on a thread some time ago that my dash started to bubble a couple of years ago and I just now replaced it with a brand new one. Before that, my leather door panels ballooned and fell off spontaneously and had to be replaced. And a few months ago all of the suede pillar covers, headliner and sunvisors fell apart, literally the headliner fell on my head while I was driving. My car is GARAGED, does not sit in the sun or other harsh elements and is babied as it should be and only driven a few thousand miles per year. I personally have seen dozens of XKs & XFs with this problem, so worse than others. That is why multiple times I have pushed Koko to have them replace the dash.
You are the one who is comfortably assuming the KBB has any bearing on dealer prices.
Never said that either. Kelley was mentioned as a reference and I said no less than 2 times in this thread that dealers here use Manheim, not Kelley...
Never said that either. Kelley was mentioned as a reference and I said no less than 2 times in this thread that dealers here use Manheim, not Kelley...
No problem. I have posted the correct numbers, and coincidentally those are the same numbers this dealer uses. So we have confirmation.
$11k-$18k
Now, its not an assumption but safe triangulation that a car that needed a new top, dash, tires, brakes was not given the very top end of that scale.
Merchants should be handsomely rewarded- but consumers should be equally rewarded too because-they are paying the wages.
I dont believe consumers should be fleeced for a merchants flamboyant overhead- especially if they are not the beneficiaries of it. A 'prestige' dealer telling someone to fix the dash themselves is like a Steakhouse asking its patron to use the washroom at McDonalds next door.
Last edited by Queen and Country; 05-26-2016 at 09:40 PM.
No problem. I have posted the correct numbers, and coincidentally those are the same numbers this dealer uses. So we have confirmation.
$11k-$18k
Now, its not an assumption but safe triangulation that a car that needed a new top, dash, tires, brakes was not given the very top end of that scale.
Merchants should be handsomely rewarded- but consumers should be equally rewarded too because-they are paying the wages.
I dont believe consumers should be fleeced for a merchants flamboyant overhead- especially if they are not the beneficiaries of it. A 'prestige' dealer telling someone to fix the dash themselves is like a Steakhouse asking its patron to use the washroom at McDonalds next door.
There is no question the industry is tainted by unscrupulous sellers and dealers. Fortunately, the internet has helped level the playing field a bit. There is one that comes to mind and they make no secret of their tactics, CarMax. They buy cars at black book wholesale and retail them for more than market value and do not negotiate...
If I were to go further with this car. I would have it thoroughly inspected by a well reputed Indie with Jaguar XK experience or a Jaguar dealer and I would have a bodyshop with significant aluminum experience go over the vehicle. Total cost below $500. Finally pulling a CarFax is a good place to start, but not to finish.
Just a follow up to first give a big thank you to everyone who has participated in this discussion. It has been quite enlightening and you all have been very helpful!
We've now had the opportunity to preview both low mileage 2007 XK ($27K, 21K mi) and XKR ($30K 18K mi) the AutoNation dealers had. Both were Florida cars, both black on black and - probably no surprise, both needed replacement dashes. The XKR was maybe slightly better than the XK, but neither were good IMO.
The XK had a new top, tires & brakes done. The XKR had nothing done and needed a new top and tires - possibly other things as well. The extra expense of *replacing* a dash and other bad items, $700 junk "dealer" fees, and no willingness to negotiate, gave us plenty of reason to walk away. Not to mention having other irons in the fire...
The weasel did show us a late model E320 convertible after we turned down their XKs - nice, but the ride is too firm (Teutonic) and generally just not the right vibe at all. As we were walking out, he had a great opening to come back with a better offer on the 1st XK but didn't go there. We might have considered it - if the price was right.
And so we're moving on now - but far more XK wise than before, thanks to you all. I'm pretty certain there will be an XK in our future though if all goes well. :-)
I am very surprised they let you walk as in not willing to try to put a deal together. On the XK, I personally thought the right price would have been about $30K, but with new top, tires, brakes, new dash (not repaired), start button and anything else it needed brand new. Oh well, I am sure the right deal will come along for you and we are always here to help with advice, whether we agree or not. And don't get a Mercedes, they are boring and a dime a dozen.
With these types of dealers the stage is set for a heartbreak.
1. They have high overhead, so they need to keep about $5k profit. The only way to do that is to be Over marketvalue or cut corners. As you saw on 2 cars- they did a combination of both.
2. The business model is not have life-long repeat customers and making money in the long run. The salesman is worried about making his rent that month. Next month he will be selling mattresses.
True story that happened to me in Chicago. I offered about $45 for a car, they said absolutely not it was below cost- blah,blah. Next month they sold the car for $36. And it was actually a horrible car!! They could not give me any records, nor could car fax of the specific service or maintenance performed. So I did what a member also suggested few posts above. I first found the Jaguar dealer that the car was originally sold by- called the service manager, he was incredibly nice, knew the car like his own kid. Said while most Jags are never driven in the winter months for commute in Chi, this one was a daily driver in the winter. FYI he did say that you are still getting twice the car of any other marquee.
Happy Memorial day to you all. May I take this moment to remind you that the Blood, Sweat and Tears that went into making the legendary planes that won the war- were made in the same factory as your XK, with much of the same techniques passed down- all aluminium riveted monocouque. There isnt another car like it, nor its heritage.
I am very surprised they let you walk as in not willing to try to put a deal together. .
We were laughing after we left over the two faced-ness of the weasel.
He previously wrote us in an email - I was told that ‘we can repair the dashboard on the XK that we have in stock but the cost would be considerable and that is why we have it priced accordingly. I was also told that repairing the dashboard involves an airbag that is under the cover, that is why it will be so costly.
But, yesterday when confronted on the lot with 2 cars needing this - while desperate to sell one, his story was - "We have a great independent shop that we can refer you to that can fix it for cheap".
Not only a complete unwillingness to negotiate or do anything to earn business - but caught in a web of their own making. If they have such a shop available - and its now all of a sudden, cheap to do - why not fix this one glaringly obvious thing, after having invested in all the other work? HA!
With these types of dealers the stage is set for a heartbreak.
*snip*
Happy Memorial day to you all. May I take this moment to remind you that the Blood, Sweat and Tears that went into making the legendary planes that won the war- were made in the same factory as your XK, with much of the same techniques passed down- all aluminium riveted monocouque. There isnt another car like it, nor its heritage.
Totally agreed - shockingly even the legitimate "high end" mainstream brand dealers have dropped to the levels of the corner car lot weasels.
Happy Memorial day to you as well - and everyone on the forum. Enjoy!
We were laughing after we left over the two faced-ness of the weasel.
He previously wrote us in an email - I was told that ‘we can repair the dashboard on the XK that we have in stock but the cost would be considerable and that is why we have it priced accordingly. I was also told that repairing the dashboard involves an airbag that is under the cover, that is why it will be so costly.
But, yesterday when confronted on the lot with 2 cars needing this - while desperate to sell one, his story was - "We have a great independent shop that we can refer you to that can fix it for cheap".
Not only a complete unwillingness to negotiate or do anything to earn business - but caught in a web of their own making. If they have such a shop available - and its now all of a sudden, cheap to do - why not fix this one glaringly obvious thing, after having invested in all the other work? HA!
Not to belabor this, but did you make them an offer on either car? I got that you asked them to make the needed repairs but did you consider to make them a lower offer as is?
As far as a shop they know that can fix it, I am sure they do, most dealers, especially as large as AutoNation, have vendors to handle all sorts of needs like this.
The salesman you were working with sounds like an idiot or a bit wet behind the ears, which is why I always go directly to the sales manager or general manager. A salesman only cares about protecting his or her commission while management has to maintain both volume and margin for the dealership and/or corporate.
05-25-2016, 09:52 PM
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