I just edited my post to add...

What cars would be on your "sports car" list, not just limited to any of the models I mentioned?

Bruce

 

I have the top of the line V8s with every option. And I guess the only way to settle this is for you to bring your XKR (and your wallet) to Vegas and we can go head-to-head for three laps at Spring Mountain. Winner gets free dinner (And I like to eat )

 

I have been racing 30 years and have spent a ton of money on racing schools learning how to heel/toe shift. Since getting my F-Type I now realize I wasted all that money. The automatic in the F-Type, the 911 S, the Corvette and many other cars can out-shift even winners like Randy Pobst (Pobst was the 2003, 2007, 2008, and 2010 SCCA World Challenge GT champion, the 1996 North American Touring Car Championship title winner, and the 2005, 2006 and 2007 SCCA World Challenge TC vice-champion. He is also a two-time class winner of the 24 Hours of Daytona, in 2001 and 2006.) He said the automatic in the 911 shifted faster than he could at Mazda raceway. I happen to think the F-Type is as good or better than the PDK (I own both cars) Read the Best Driver's car edition of Road & Track where he talks about it. My quarter mile times are a almost a full second faster when I am in automatic on any of my newer sports cars, including the F-Type.

 

Here's a link to Wikipedia, and how they define a GT, along with a list of many models that they consider to be GT's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_tourer\

I found it surprising that they included the Honda S2000, Acura NSX, and Mazda RX7.

They also have a Sports Car site. The Scion FRS, S2000 and NSX are listed as both a GT and sports car.

They don't distinguish between various performance versions of a model, like XK vs XKR-S. They classify the XK as a GT, with Ian's use of insane beauty and faux back seat to fool the insurance companies.

The F-Type is listed as a sports car.

Bruce

PS: Ngarara, I hope those stitches are okay...no driving your sports car, I mean GT, until you're healed

 

To answer your question about are sports cars generally faster than GT cars? Absolutely not!

Sports cars need not be fast--just nimble and fun to drive. This generally means lightweight, and more barebones. Of course, these days, the lines are blurred quite a bit as cars are getting heavier and heavier with more standard equipment.

 

Yeah, it's been bloody annoying for the last 2 weeks

However, this weekend is the Goodwood Festival of Speed, and on Sunday I shall be taking my 'Goodwood Limited Edition' to its spiritual home.

Drivers on the A3, A283 and A285 are advised to watch out for a dark grey blur…

 

Bruce!

I think Jaguar would strongly disagree and so does Wikipedia: A sports car (sportscar or sport car) is a small, usually two seat, two door automobile designed for spirited performance and nimble handling.[2] Sports cars may be spartan or luxurious but high maneuverability and minimum weight are requisite. Granted the F Type is a bit heavy but don't forget that the current F Type is a soft top which, are always heavier than the coupe. Jaguar designed the F Type as a sports car to compete with the 911. It appears that they have done a very good job for the first iteration!

 

A bit heavy? It's a real porker! I forget which reviewer had fun mocking the claims of "lightweight" aluminum chassis and panels, but recall it was the Brit's own racing legend, Justin Bell, that described it as a GT in his review with Tommy Kendall. Hopefully the coupe sheds substantial weight.

The reviews I've seen haven't spoken too favorably about its steering feel or feedback, or raved about any aspect of handling or performance, which I think is pretty telling. But some do like the sound of its raucus exhaust and prodigous torque as they senselessly smoke the tires around a track for the cameras. I was particularly disappointed in the Chris Harris review as he seemed to abandon most performance criteria he's always considered important in order to give it a thumbs up.

But I doubt that Jaguar actually intended it to be a more traditional sports car anyways because that hasn't been their strength or customer in decades. It's a shift to the sports car end of the scale, and clearly different from what the larger XK will be when it arrives. In the mean time it leaves both the F-Type and XK (particularly XKR and R-S) struggling a little with their identities because they both offer a rich blend of sports car and GT qualities.

And it's all of those qualities that make me enjoy the XKR so much on both the road and race track, and I'm sure others feel the same driving theirs...whether behind the wheel of an XK or F-Type

Bruce

 

Sorry but I call em like I see em and Bruce it sounds like you're growing some sour grapes and trying to justify why you drive an XKR v. the F-Type.

I'd like to see which reviews exactly you're referring to. I haven't seen those remarks anywhere.

The car has won half a dozen major awards already, has been raved about in almost every shoot out and press review, and as the owner of both an XKR and an F-Type I can attest to the fact that the XKR is a wonderful grand tourer that feels and drives like Rolls Royce compared to the F-Type which feels like a jet fighter and absolutely shreds the XKR on the track. And sports cars are meant to be driven on the track. Grand Tourers are meant to be driven down the coast along the ocean at a nice smooth pace.

Exactly how many places does Jaguar have to say "We decided to build a 'sports car'" before you will believe them? It's a phrase they have used in every advertisement, on all their showroom display materials, in the brochure, on the web site, and in every single interview they have granted, etc.

I love the XKR - but it's no F-Type. They are two completely different cars.

 

I had only a short test drive in the V8 F-type and I enjoyed the ride. I do think that the exhaust with the valve open is too much, bordering "crude and rude" when it comes to the driver's eardrums you are blowing by. But, boy-racers will love it.

As an other decades long race car driver, I appreciate the power and the potential (yet untested by me) handling traits of the F-type, I also agree that the car is too heavy and porky at 3700 lbs. That is from my race car driving perspective and, I admit, most non-racers will not notice the weight.

I still was hoping for judicious applications of real light weight technology in a brand new model when other manufacturers are already using such technology. A Porsche Carrera is many hundreds of pounds lighter, so is the far less expensive Corvette.

Oh, probably 25 years ago when I was on the BOD of the Lamborghini Club I wrote a piece in the Lamborghini magazine following my tour of the Lambo factory. Then I stated that the future of exotic cars was in the extensive use of composite materials. If an expensive exotic car tried to separate itself from the low priced masses they would have no choice but, to use that advanced technology.

So, it took two decades for Lamborghini and others to make use of carbon fiber chassis and body parts. Needless to say the advantages are significant. Thus, I equally expect Jaguar to use at lest partial composite construction and computerized chassis design to maximize stiffness and strength while minimizing weight.

After test driving the F-type I would not mind at all to have one, particularly the upcoming coupe variation. But, most likely I would have to refrain from trying to outrun those lighter weight competitions from Porsche, Corvette etc. that the F-type appears to be aimed at. As you know from racing experience, 500 extra lbs is a heck of a lot of pork to overcome. I think it was sloppy engineering from Jaguar to allow the weight to stack up on the car.

Albert

 

Due you guys think the extra pounds are in the chassis or the options on the car?

I know a lot of 911s don't even have a single button on the steering wheel etc. Where the F type is like a robot, since there are so many different motors in it for various things, such as door handles, vents.

 

Scott, I certainly do agree, even though I don't own an F-Type, but sure wish I did. Cockpit is just a bit too small for me, but do love my XKR. I agree the XKR is not a track car for racing either competitively or for open track days.

Your one lucky dude to be able to own both.

 

This is only an indication of what they want you to believe. They want you to think it's some sort of lightweight high performance sports car with space age materials without actually having gone through the process of making the car lightweight.

Then again, the original E-Type was no lightweight itself at 2900-3100lbs for the time. In fact, I myself don't even consider the original E-Type a sports car but a muscle car/grand tourer. Compare that to the 911s of similar era that weighed but 2200 lbs or so.

That being said, I haven't driven an F-Type at more than 15 mph so I shouldn't comment on whether or not it is a true sports car. It seems like many people in this thread who are calling it a sports car are making a comparison to the XKR, which seems a poor benchmark to use (i.e., it's much more of a sports car than an XKR so it must be a sports car).

 

I am interested to see how bad the F-Type V8S sports car shreds the XKR-S grand tourer on the Nurburgring.

Has anyone seen any times yet? Why hasn't Jaguar released a time for its sports car, as Porsche and other marques have with theirs?

 

1961 E type was little under 2700lbs

 

Still rather heavy for the 1960s, wasn't it? Compare that to GT cars of the time: a Ferrari 250 GTO was around 2400 lbs, an Aston Martin DB4 was 2700 lbs, and a Lambo Miura was 2800 lbs or so.

But as for the truer sports cars, an AC Ace was about 1900 lbs, an MGB was about 2000 lbs as was the Alfa Romeo Giulietta.

I'm not trying to say that the E-Type was a porker, but it definitely seems to me to be more squarely in the GT than sports car category. But I wasn't around then!

 

I think you are being tough on the F Type. All of the reviews that I have seen have raved about how good it is: EVO, Autocar, 5th Gear, and on and on. The Carrera 4S weighs 3400 lbs which, is the car that EVO ran against the F Type V8S which weights 3671. That is 271 lbs heavier with its V8 vs the Flat 6 of the Porsche. I think it's safe to assume that the engine alone could make up the 271 lbs. It's just a different car, it's a V8. The Ferrari Californian weighs 4123 lbs the Audi R8 V10 weighs over 4000 lbs. Those are considered sports cars. They are big V8 and V10 sports cars. If you want to use a V8 or larger engine the car is going to be heavier. As far as the road feel the only mention has been the steering and it's not been made much of an issue.

 

So do you have any evidence to the contrary? Absence any controverting evidence it seems downright silly to assume Jaguar is trying to "trick" us into believing it's a sports car. And my comments were made in response to a person who was arguing he didn't think Jaguar thought it was a sports car. I provided a list of places where they said it was. If you have any secret insight then please share. And again my comments were in relation to an XKR because that's what the OP was talking about. I own corvettes, Porsches, etc. and I consider them sports cars. I also consider the F-type a sports car. You're free of course to consider it a station wagon if you like

 

Just curious, you think that the F-Type is aimed at the Corvette? It costs twice as much so I am surprised you think that it's a target. The Porsche? Now yes it is aimed at the Porsche and it is exactly 271 pounds heavier. I own a 2013 (991 body style) 911 Carrera S coupe and I think there are places the 911 is better and places the F-Type is better but mostly I think they are very different.

Also - since the Ferrari California, and several of the recent Lambos as well as the Audi R8 weigh more than 4000 pounds - significantly more than the F-Type, do you consider the engineers at those companies to be sloppy too?

 

There is no doubt in my own mind that the F-Type is considered a sports car. Pretty hard to contest that.

As for racing, I am quite sure that in the months ahead, we will see the F-Type or at least early in 2014 being raced in different venues.

I also believe that not only will we see the F-Type raced in professional racing, we will also see the F-Type raced in amatuer racing like the SCCA.

As a competitive race car driver for many years, (SCCA) and other organizations, in formula race cars, I have seen many sports cars out on the track, from Porsche, Corvettes, to BMW's etc. I don't think the Jaguar F-Type will be far behind. Then we will see how well the car does in a competitive racing environment.

Perhaps we need to give the F-Type a little more time to get out in the public. Jaguar has a job to do to market the car, so they will use words that are effective to sell the car. Jaguar is a respected brand and they have the best of the best in marketing. Remember that Tata Motors and Jaguar have millions invested in this model, and they need to promote it to sell, as any auto manufactuer would do. It's marketing.

I see no reason to grind the F-Type into the ground here. For those that own the F-Type, I envy them. If I could have found an F-Type perhaps at the lower end pricing of $75,000 and the cockpit was a bit larger, I most likely would have made the purchase. The F-Type is pretty cool and who can deny that fact. Time, will be the test for the owners of the cars pro or con. I had many good years racing competitively in open wheel cars, but now at age 61 I really enjoy my XKR ragtop, and taking that baby out for some enjoyable time on the streets, not the race track.

Yes, there is a difference between the 2 models (F-Type and XKR). I still think that we willl see F-Types out in the secondary market in 2014 well below the original sticker prices. It's just fact. That's one aspect of the car Jaguar can't do much about.

For now, I'll enjoy my XKR, which in my mind is one awesome driving machine, pure luxury, pure perfomance, excellent style, and quite the head turner when people see it. I will also let the F-Type owner/drivers enjoy their cars, whether on the street or track. It's pretty hard to put the F-Type down in my opinion.