Here is a comparison for 3 other similar performance cars we were discussing. I believe that you quoted the weight for the Carrera 4 which is heavier than the Carrera S.

2013 Gallardo LP550 = 3042lbs and 550HP Note that the Gallardo has light weight variations that come in under 3000lbs.
New 2013 Lamborghini Gallardo LP550-2 Coupe Exterior Specs - 2013 Lamborghini Gallardo LP550-2 Coupe Headlights, Wheels, Bodykits - Motor Trend Magazine

Porsche 2013 Carrera S = 3074lbs and 400HP
New 2013 Porsche 911 Carrera S Coupe Exterior Specs - 2013 Porsche 911 Carrera S Coupe Headlights, Wheels, Bodykits - Motor Trend Magazine

2014 Corvette = 3444lbs and 460HP and view below the full road test data:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/cm/roada.../vettecomp.pdf

As it appears, despite moving to more carbon fiber components, the new fully optioned base Vette gained about 100lbs of pork over last year's model. Too bad. Still not bad for the base model. The previous higher performance ZO6 models were nearly 200 lbs lighter than the base Vette so we may assume that when those variations hit the market the weight will drop.

Yes, I definitely consider the 2014 Vette among the F-type competition. I will put money on a bet that the above linked base Vette will outrun the top of the line V8 F-type in both track racing and straight line performance. It will absolutely eat the V6 models for breakfast, all the while costing less then the least expensive F-type.

While I have not seen the new Vette, all indications are that the quality of the car, inside and out, will be to very high standards. How good is it? Let Tony Stewarts tell you:

Tony Stewart Drives the 2014 Corvette C7 Stingray - 2014 Chevrolet Corvette C7 Stingray First Drive - Road & Track

"I can get the thing turned and adjust the attitude with my feet, the brake and throttle. That's amazing. I've never driven a street car like that."

So, yes, I still think that the F-type is too fat still, I would like to have one to play with. However, if I wanted ultimate performance I would likely go with a new, higher-end (ZO7?) Vette variation that should be on the market within a year. Imagine what that car will do if the base model performs as in the above R&T test. I would honestly not own or drive a rear-engined Porsche if it was given to me free and I'd already owned 2 Lamborghinis and do not wish back their poor built qualities (no doubt improved under German ownership).

Albert

 

I know the F type doesn't get much credit when compared to the competition, but a very important factor is being forgotten.

The F type is the car that gets driven every day.

Porsche's are always the 2nd or the 3rd car in the garage for the weekends, much like the Corevette(even though i don't see Corvette as compeition - two completely different demographics)

At the end of the day, it's still a Jaguar, you must ensconce yourself into the car and it must be able to absorb anything the road throws at it.

Jaguar's main goal was to be the first car to be picked Monday through Sunday and they firmly hit the nail in the head.

 

Maybe I'm being obtuse: I consider the Ferrari California very much a GT car, and the Audi R8 is a supercar, not a sports car.

 

Funny you say that. Happens to be correct, as after driving my V8 XF and a loaner V6 XF, my 20012 XJL and the new 2013 XJL with improved suspension, I found the ride of the F-type V8 to be the best of all by far. Much better dampened than either sedan. Supposed to be the other way around! I actually felt like trading-in my XJL (stopped by the horrendous 1yr depreciation) that I chose originally for its assumed superior ride comfort for my long distance commutes. Leave it to Jaguar to turn things upside down...

As to credit for the F-type; we have not seen the full professional reviews, yet, and ultimate credit will be through sales numbers. I hope Jaguar will do well with the car, although I do think that the pricing will hurt it. People do not expect to pay the same for what is perceived as a "smaller" car than the existing larger and more luxuriously equipped XK(R) lines. But, we'll have to wait and see...

Albert

 

No one model can be expected to suit everyone's needs. The F-Type doesn't have enough space for my sporting street use, and if I needed more focus on performance on the track than my other modified sports and GT cars provide I'd have to look elsewhere also. Buyers with well-suited needs should be thrilled with the F-Type.

This review with Chris Harris, an F-Type, Aston Vantage and Porsche 991 clearly identifies the strengths and differences with each. Well worth the time to watch...
The 6 cylinder XKE actually weighed under 2500 pounds, had no luxury features (except A/C as an option, and later an automatic) and there was nothing on the car that didn't enhance performance, and everything that did. The rear suspension even had inboard mounted disc brakes to reduce unsprung weight, dual dampers, and a limited slip differential. It was all wrapped in a skin tight sensuous body. It also didn't have any muscle car pretenses. US models were rated at 225 bhp while the American muscle cars were putting out closer to 400 bhp or more. It was the gentleman's sports car, and later more of a GT with the V12, longer length, and extra features and weight. If the F-Type resembles any XKE, it would be the V12...just like each successive XK has done, IMO.

Bruce

 

Bruce

Nice video find, thanks. I think I would agree with the conclusion of the tester and chose the F-type out of the 3. Too bad, however, that he did not bother listing the lap times. I would have liked to have that comparison. My guess would be: 1. Porsche 2. F-type 3. Aston.

While it is impressive to show off and watch the driver's skills in tossing the cars around, such antics would definitely not result in the fastest lap times. But, they look impressive.

To go back to my views and comparison to the 2014 Vette, I have little doubt that the base Vette would outlap any of the 3 cars in the video. If it also delivers the same ride comfort that made the C6 likely the most comfortable sports car ride out there, it should be a very strong contender.

Albert

 

Wow, this thread has taken off! Just a few points to add:

1) whoever said they wasted their time in driving schools for heel/toe because paddles are better is missing the point. Sticks are now fun for the involvement only - not the track results.

2) the debate over F type or XKR is interesting. Some of you have both, others of us can afford either. I have an 11' XKR and will definitely consider the F Coupe. I have had enough convertibles and unless its a targa or hard top drop top I don't need to open air. I would say that the convertible disappointed me a bit. It does seem a bit average. My XK gets pictures snapped of it 10 times a day. It just has that exotic low stance with wide hips. The F vert looks like a "styled" car in the same vain as TT or Crossfire but different shape of course. It doesn't have a timeless design as much as I wan to love it. Hope the Coupe will change my opinion.

3) the comparison with Vette is also interesting. Having owned a C5 Z06 I can say Chevy engineers the crap out of the Vette. Save for interior quality - which is corrected on C7 - it is the perfect all arounder. Long wheelbase for smooth ride, good gas mileage, beast of an engine, great handling and braking etc. I would bet my left leg it will be a better peformer and even ride better than the F type due to its long wheelbase and magnetic shocks. BUT... So do many cars trump Aston Martin. But they ain't an Aston and a Vette isn't a Jag. That cheesy Camaro rear end and also seeing yourself coming and going gets old.

4) 911 is a great car. What more can be said about it. My only issue is that they really don't feel special or have the presence of a Vantage or even a well sorted XK. And they cost way too much to be produced in those volumes! I love how they feel though. I still may get a 997TT or GT3RS

 

I find this gets annoying because it takes away from a more meaningful discussion of the car's handling and performance, and definitely affects the subjective preference of the reviewer. No one buys a car to shred the tires down to nothing and fill the cabin full of smoke in an afternoon, but it seemed that was what Chris just couldn't get enough of. What makes this review different is that he also covers some of the aspects of handling that some will think are important. He concluded that the Porsche took the top spot in handling, but lost subjectively in the special dept, and while that car would suit my needs for space, I'm just too tired of the 911 look to consider it.

I'm absolutely certain your Stingray predictions will be correct. No surprise really as performance has always been their key focus. Buyers who demand an upscale interior can now add the Vette to their list, although its lack of exclusivity and owner stereotype won't appeal to all. And that should prove to be quite the dilemma for some of us!

Bruce

 

While an XKR wouldn't likely be purchased as a "dedicated" track car, or a substitute for your formula racer, even your vintage of XKR would be fun for the odd open track day, despite it's unforgivable lack of a limited slip diff for high performance use. I'm sure you didn't buy yours for track use.

In my case I did, and chose a 2010 for its engine, suspension, diff and software upgrades that are appreciated on the track, and I've enjoyed mine there repeatedly. Surprisingly impressive performance for a heavier car that can be enjoyed on the street also! My reference is extensive seat time on track in cars that are competitive with all but the fastest, and I've never had a problem if I'm a tick slower than some. I'll look foward to dicing it up with an F-Type...but doubt I'll see one on track with me anytime soon.

Bruce

 

IMO, this is the very essence of a sports car. Driver involvement, responsiveness, "fun", etc. Weight can be detrimental to all of these things. So can not having a stick!

 

I'll give up being fastest for driving the most fun.

 

Agree on way too much tire smoke. But, it was apparently made for YouTube viewership that is likely to be more or less clueless on what it takes to go fast and likes to be impressed by tire smoke. I remember running for a while with a national race sanctioning body that allowed street cars on their track days. Someone ran a beautiful Pantera with gorgeous V8 sounds, huge tires and he lit up those tires in every possible way in all tight corners. Then, I stood with him watching the following track group, a bunch of 130HP Mazda RX-7 modified street-chassied race group. The Pantera guy was completely disgusted to time the RX-7s at 20 second per lap faster than his tire smoking, heroicly thrown-around 400+HP Pantera. He just did not understand the concept that when you are spinning/burning tires you are not going forward.

As to the question of exclusivity; well that will only take me so far. When I had my two Lamborghinis, boy they were ultra exclusive. 177 ever made of my first model, only 52 of the second. But, I found that when I finished building up my ordinary Mustang GT not only was it far faster than either Lambo but, a hell of a lot more fun to toss around with it perfectly neutral handling. I completely lost interest in driving the Lambos and sold them. When the '93 Twin Turbo RX-7 came along, I built one for my taste and it was even faster than the Mustang and the Stang had to gol

These days I enjoy looking-at and sitting-in my gorgeous, exclusive XJL but, after 4 service visits to fix what I think is a bad ride, I am getting to be sick of driving it. For my long trips, give me a Camry and I trade it for the ride and experience of this exclusive Jaguar.

So, with the Stingray. As you know, I still have my second '93 RX-7 with its modded 500HP and 2600 lbs total weight. The new 2014 Vette or the F-Type will not touch it in performance and handling. Still, if I get to the point where I want an other sports car, one that I can drive anywhere, I will very seriously consider the Vette, despite the lack of exclusivity. What matters to me is the "driving experience" much more than how much admiration my car could extract from other people.

An other (for me) huge advantage for the Vette is the wide availability of aftermarket parts. All my life, up to owning my last 4 Jaguars, I always modded every single cars, including my Lambos. For my first Lambo that weighted a porky 3450 lbs with its huge and heavy V12 engine, I shed over 200 lbs by getting rid of extra weights everywhere, like the heavy exhaust or by pulling molds off of the steel body panels, engine lid, etc and laying-up my own carbon fiber versions. The original steel engine cover weighted 52 lbs, my carbon version was 7 lbs with much better engine compartment venting. Initially some Lambo folks thought it was "blasphemy" to so modify those "perfect" Italian master-pieces but, in every track event my car was always the fastest while looking even more exclusive with its modified body panels. Next thing was that other owners would ask me to build the same light panels for them. Nope, you could not pay me enough to do that dirty work for someone else.

Oh, yes, I also LOVE the process of modding and the challenges of making something better. I have yet to drive a car that I did not want to modify. The big drawback for Jaguars for me is the lack of aftermarket component availability for modifying.

Albert

 

Drifting is a competitive sport, and very difficult to master, from what I've seen. It is certainly not a speed race, but based on style points during completion of an obstacle course.

 

At the risks of appearing to promote Corvettes on a Jaguar forum here are a couple of links; I think some of you forum readers may be interested in the performance details as well as details on electronic sophistication for the new Stingray; described in the video below (12 minutes).

http://jalopnik.com/the-2014-corvett...miss-913824179

More performance numbers and sticker price to go with them:

The 2014 Corvette Stingray Does 0 To 60 MPH In Just 3.8 Seconds

Lap time comparison: 2014 Stingray 2 min 51 sec @ VIR track. Not bad for a "base" model with the optional Z51 suspension at $56,590 sticker.

Corvette ZR1 (current record holder) 2:45.63
Dodge Viper SRT-10 ACR 2:48:60
Ferrari 458 2:49.90
Lamborghini Gallardo Superleggera (LP570-4) 2:51.80
KTM X-Bow 2:52.30
Camaro ZL1 2:52.38
Nissan GT-R 2:53.20
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Z07 2:53.50
Lexus LFA 2:55.10
Posche 911 GT3 RS 2:55.90

Albert

PS -- rumor says 600 HP ZO version almost ready for release:
http://autos.yahoo.com/news/chevrole...151143547.html

 

Albert, I think MT have been drinking too much Lambo and Porsche Kool-Aid. The last two Gallardos tested over at Car and Driver weighed over 3400lbs http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...-sup-08-ss.pdf and Edmunds recently tested a 911 and came up with 3277lbs.

All the same, weight is a pet peeve of mine in all vehicles. Manufacturers are getting sensitive about it as they now try to hide such info in their online brochures.

The reasons for added lard are tougher safety regs and the consumer demand for better refinement and less NVH. I reckon if some of got back into a 1990's medium sized prestige car like a Mercedes 190 or a BMW 5 series we would find it a rattlebox even compared with a midsize Kia rental from the airport.

Jaguar are no less affected by these factors and so the weight on the F-Type convertible is a little bit of a shock. We shall have to wait and see if the coupe is any lighter.

 

Agent: I can't argue with numbers as I was not there at the time of weighting any of the cars. Perhaps it is dry vs. wet weights, with or without the driver? So, your guess is as good as mine who is correct. Still, at 3277, the 911 is a HUGE 500 lbs lighter than the F-type. That is like having 3 average size male adults in the car besides the driver. Driving a performance car by yourself, then adding 3 adults for the next round, you feel that your super handling car just turned into a pig of a handler all due to that added 500 lbs.
You are correct in saying that modern safety equipment accounts for much extra weight. Yes, weight is the numero uno enemy of performance and I always worked hard in getting rid of it.

There are some places where it is nearly un-excusable to add much weight, such as in these large diameter wheels. My 9.5" wide XK wheels weighted 64 lbs on the rear with the tire being 31 of that total. So, 33 lb wheel weight. One of the worst places to have that much weight. My 17 inch, 9.5" wide wheels on my 2600 lbs RX-7 weight only 17 lbs and have not bent them in 20 years of full-on race and hard street use. That is a whopping 15lbs less/wheel + 4lbs less tire weigh. Given those high impact speeds the suspension travels when hitting surface bumps at high speeds the extra 19 lbs generate some very large additional forces for the springs and dampers to counter act. Significant improvement in handling on that alone as the lighter wheels stay in touch with the ground a lot better.

But, not many of us are so hardcore as to even run the windshield-washer water tank empty to save a couple of lbs. Heck, I even removed the plastic container and pump for an extra lb saving. Lots if little savings added up to a very significant 350 lbs of total weight saved from the already light weight car while pretty much doubling its factory power from 258HP to 500 HP.

But, truthfully, the F-type is a REALLY fun car and the average buyer will never even take note of the weight. At the end, it is all about the perception of performance and how much the owner being rewarded by the driving experience. My test drive of the V8 F-type suggested a LOT of potential fun. I don't know if I ever purchase an other 2 seater but, sure nice to have good, fun choices to contemplate.

Albert

 

With everyone throwing around the manufacturer's numbers for quarter mile speeds, lap times, etc. I think it's worth noting that not everyone can achieve those times. Buying the same exact golf clubs as Tiger Woods won't win you a Masters. I have had my racing license for more than 40 years. When someone pulls up next to me and says "How fast will that thing go?" I always answer "Depends on who's driving." The fastest car with the slowest driver will always be slower than the slowest car with the fastest driver.

I look forward to taking on the Corvettes at Spring Mountain in my F-Type. While I love Corvettes *and have a red/black C7 on order for museum delivery* I have lots of experience driving them around the track and in the turns, I think they are going to have trouble keeping up with the F-Type, assuming that is that Pirelli comes out with the track focused tire they are promising for the F-Type in Oct. I don't doubt that the C7 will have the advantage on the long straight, but there are lots of turns on most of the courses I run. And that leaves me excited to see which car can turn the fastest lap times. With me driving that is

 

Viper is not as great as everyone may think it is.

The SLS has 400lbs extra weight, less HP and faster around the track than the Viper. Corvette will be no different.

Skip to the 10:00 minute mark to see them both driven by a professional driver.

 

The Viper owned the regular SLS, but this is the race car they call an SLS AMG. It puts more power to the ground due to closer ratio gears, a higher redline that takes much better advantage of every gear, a DCT transmission that allows quicker acceleration, and better tires. The SLS also has much more advanced suspension and electronic aids that make the Viper look like it's from the stone age. It's power is also said to be underrated. At triple the price you would expect it to be superior, and it is.

The C7 Stingray is also ridiculously more advanced than the Viper, even the base model with a couple of options. It'll be interesting to see how it and a higher performance Z06 version will compare to a wide range of performance cars...especially at it's low price.

 

Bruce,

I am aware that it's the AMG Black series model. I vaguely stated just the models in my post, as the video gave all the details on the car.

Regarding the engine hp output, it's actually the other way around. The Viper yields significantly more power and torque.

The Viper SRT ------- 640hp and 600ft-lbs
SLS AMG Black series------- 622 horsepower and 468 ft-lb


The SLS has less HP, a lot less torque, weights more, still manages faster lap time around the track.

The F type's weight gets brought up quite a bit, but the car itself is much more superior than it's competition, as it's all about the engineering.
I believe when it comes to engineering vehicles, Europeans are much more sophisticated, than the car companies are here at home and the video proves that.

You are correct, the SLS costs 3 times as much, but that only confirms one thing.....you get what you pay for.