Had 4 930's back in the 80's, one was a Kremmer that was putting out 500hp in 1985 (gray mkt car). Those cars were amazing, rock solid, incredible performance, sound and timeless design. These guys comparing any 911 even new ones to a Jaguar XK is just ridiculous; apples and pineapples. If my spine wasn't such a mess I'd be in a 991 PDK C2S but miss the aircooled 911's dearly.

OC did you ever get your tire pressures sorted? I'd love to see a picture of the tire card in your door jamb showing the fronts at a higher pressure than the rears.

 

I shudder to think of a couple of 911's that had big offs right in front of me on the track...scary and totally unexpected from what I could see following them. They had grip...and then they didn't...and then body parts flying everywhere.

I've enjoyed a mid-engine car on track, but more from the challenge of keeping the rear from passing the front while putting together a fast lap. Great at braking and getting the power down, but you've got to respect its handling characteristics at all times.

Bruce

 

Yes respect them for sure. Gotta remember 911's for the track were designed to be a road racing cars but part of the fun was knowing his to handle them especially the older turbo's...keep on the power in the the turns!!! Lifting off produced deadly oversteer!

 

That's definitely part of their driver appeal. There was a certain level of required "commitment" in the corners...and a whole lot of testicular fortitude! In most cars you need to be concerned about running out of talent at the apex...with rear and some mid-engine it's most likely at turn-in

 

I'm not surpised that you find the Porsche easier to drive than the XKR. The XKR suspension is tuned with far too much understeer so you have to kind of wrestle it around tight corners. It is very safe handling but, hard to drive it very fast on tight winding roads. Obviously, not made for the track oriented people but, for cruise-oriented people. For me, I got the XK not to win banzai road encounters but, to simply drive a comfortable and beautiful cruiser. It does that well but, it does not handle the twisties particularly well. It would take some lowering of the suspension, tightening up the damper rates and much larger rear sway bars to balance it out; those changes would absolutely transform its handling, the steering effort, precision, for much better. Too bad, noone sells replacement swaybars for the XK/XKR. That is the single, biggest issue with the Jag's handling.

Like I said, with the substantial advances in suspension techs. they made the 9-series Porsches actually easy to drive, masking its terrible physical layout. The funny thing is that I remember that Porsche wanted to shut down production of the 911 configurations something like 30 years ago but, the American Porsche drivers (Porsche's largest customer base) threatened and rebelled against the news, saying that they would never buy an other Porsche if the factory stopped making the rear engined configuration. Of course, those were the drivers who rarely exceeded the low American speed limits and thus, rarely encountered the rear-engine vices that would appear when one started pushing the car hard in med/high speed corners. There is a very good reason that no other auto manufacturer make rear engined cars! Those who had, had given up on them long time ago (Skoda, Tatra, Chevrolet, etc).

Albert

 

Have you had a chance to drive the 2010+ XKR's aggressively? On the track I was conscious of its weight, which I thought it handled remarkably well, but didn't have a problem with understeer or overall balance. I became more concerned about whether it would start to over-steer as I probed its limits. But I suspect a novice driver could get into all sorts of problems, and I'm a big believer in car control training for that very reason.

Bruce

 

No, Bruce, I have not. I should have stated that my XK experience extends to having owned the '05 and the '08 variations. Both has had the same, heavily understeering and soft handling traits. Having looked at the XKR specs vs. XK specs the differences are fairly minor.

It seems obvious to me that Jaguar did its market research and decided that its customer base preferred a soft, gorgeous cruiser, as opposed to a hard-edged all out performance model. After all it is obviously INTENTIONAL that they chose this path. It is actually very easy to build a superbly handling car but, as usual, it has its trade offs. I guess, that phylosophy is the one that earned Jaguar that unwanted reputation as an "old people's car". I would prefer a more precise, more hard edged XK/XKR but, that is NOT my priority with this car. Jaguar may have actually hit the target as also seen in a near total lack of after-market tuning product which suggest the same lack of interest from the customers to tune their cars. If there was substantial interest, the aftermarket would be there to fill it. There is NOT. I've been reading this forum for many years and find surprisingly few posts where someone would really seek to improve-on or tune their vehicle. When I see some talking about lowering springs, etc, the goal is doing it for the "looks" and not for the substantial handling gains that such change could provide, if coupled with other changes. You look at some other makes of performance cars and there is a near limitless supply of aftermarket offerings. Again, market research of the customer base dictates that supply.

The new designer at Jag, forgot his name, stated that he was attempting to steer Jag away from its old customer base and make the new cars oriented more towards younger generations. We'll just have to see how successful that process works out to be and if it translates into more performance vs. comfort oriented handling.

Albert

 

Well of course you think it's soft then...you've fallen seriously behind with both the 2010 XK upgrades and the further upgrades on the XKR. You may have notice that a number of new forum members buying the 2010+ XKR's are rather up on performance after owning some hardcore sports cars, and are maybe a little younger than perhaps the XK owners of old (no pun intended). Soft doesn't apply to any part of my car's handling, and neither would razor sharp by hardcore standards, but I'd describe it as both highly competent and confidence inspiring...and yes, I certainly know the difference.

So you could reserve judgement until you experience the new breed, and I'd be happy to provide that opportunity on May 11th at Mosport if you'd care to join me as my guest!

Bruce

 

I've had my 10 XKR for a week now, and the difference between my 07 XKR and this one is significant!

This car is even more solid than the 07, and I was in love with my 07. I simply love the performance of this car.

 

Can you guys give me a bit more specifics on the differences? What is the size of the rear roll bar? Much less body roll? much better damper rebound control? much lower center of gravity? etc... which I would look for as improvements from the earlier cars.

My plans are to stick with my '08 for a couple of more years since I have the CPO warranty up to then. As of this moment I would then trade for either the new body style XK variants or the upcoming F variants or the XJ variants. Since I use my car 95+ percent as a freeway cruiser, its softness is fine with me. For winding roads I would select a different car.

If I could only get rid of the damned drone ...&#^@%^!!! As I am reading up on the subject my drone symptoms appear to be very common at near the 2000 RPM range across all kinds of makes and models. Even the strange phenomena where no drone exist for the first 30 minutes, only to be followed by a drone developing as the stainless exhaust track expands and changing the exhaust frequency, even that appears to be a fairly common occurring.

As to Bruce; very much appreciate your offer of loaning your car to me on the racetrack, BUT: 1) I'm retired from racing, been there, done that, no more needed. 2) Advice: NEVER, EVER, loan your car to anyone on the racetrack. If they pack it into the wall.... that is how friendships end. I only borrowed my friend's race car once, after I blew my own engine in qualifying and still wanted to do the race for the points. So, guess what? I blew his engine during the race. Of course I paid for it but, he had to miss his race. The same friend borrowed an other friend's car at a different time and rolled it end-to-end 6 times, totaling it. He then spent the next year building a new race car to replace the one he destroyed. No insurance for damages on the track...

Albert

 

Albert,
I think jag did target a more performance oriented audience with the xkr-s. There is a 40 hp increase and significant changes to the suspension and active differential. While it's not the fastest car on the track, it goes well for a gt car evidenced by lap times on top gear and "ring time" of 7:50 for the coupe.

 

No doubt, you are correct. The xkr-s seem to be lowered, its body roll seems to be minimal, at least what I had seen on the Top Gear demo footage. Also, I am sure, the added power of the 5 Liter XKR(s) engine vs. the 4.2 liter must make a significant difference in the ability to "steer with the throttle", meaning that one can basically correct an otherwise heavy understeer by feathering the throttle. Not necessarily the fastest for lap times but, a fun way to drive around corners :-)

Albert

 

Albert,

The specifications of all the suspension components are proprietary, and a non-disclosure agreement prevents me from telling you, but I can say that the roll bars, spring rate, damper valving, tire specs are all different from what the pre 2010's use, and all were done to improve roll stiffness and handling, with the improvements in the electronic dampers valving and control also allowing for a reasonably compliant ride quality when conditions warrant. Then there's the addition of electronic diff and larger engine, and re-calibration of engine, transmission, suspension and stability control for optimum performance. Just can't crunch the numbers to predict performance, but a nice drive will confirm it.
You thought I was going to let you drive my new car on one of the most dangerous high-speed race tracks in the world? At the track that almost everyone I know has had a big off? Down the infamous Turn 2 that Jackie Stewart claims is one of the ten most dangerous corners in all of motorsports today?

I'd be delighted to provide you the opportunity to experience it while driving it to your heart's content all around the local country-side, and while approaching its performance limits on the track as a passenger. However you experience it though, I know you'll find the car is a new animal, and I was first tipped off to that by the many automotive reviews I read.

I'll throw in accomodations...can you come?

Bruce

 

Gee, Bruce. You are in incredibly generous person to the point where I am really tempted to take you up on the offer, minus having to throw in the accommodations. That goes even beyond being nice!

I REALLY appreciate the offer!

Looking at my calendar quickly, we are returning from a Mexican vacation on that very day. Can you send me a short video instead? I'd love to see you and the XKR in action on the track. What kind of sessions are you running? The "passenger allowed" comment suggests in my experience a "school" session, with passing allowed only at "safe" zones of the track, vs. full door to door racing with no restrictions. Heck, if I remember the big advantage of "school" sessions was that the insurance companies might even pay for a damages if they occurred under official "school" sessions. Out West, the "NASA" sanctioning body ran "school" sessions. I actually raced with them for a few years in regular race classes before getting tired of the high percentage of accidents and damages that were encouraged by the organization in order to promote media coverage. They did a standing F1 style start vs. the rolling starts of SCCA. Very accident prone, just the start itself.

Albert

 

That's me...and I live fairly close to the track. Guest get the lake view room. It's a bonus going with friends because they can take one car and me another for variety on the track.

I pretty much only do private open lapping/test and tune events now. Very laid back, low attendance, advanced drivers, high-end and race cars, cooperation vs competition, no sessions, self tech, no rules other than no passing at the apex, no problems. I expect to start doing some BMW and PCA DE's as a way to get on some distant tracks I'd like to check off the list in the Jag. Must do Road Atlanta again, and I bet the XKR brakes hold up well even into T10A (most demanding brake zone I've ever experienced).

Hopefully another time!

Bruce

 

Ok, that sounds fun and low pressure. Just keep it upright!

Still, really, please be extremely careful, taking a nice car, such as the Jag, to the track is ALWAYS risky no matter how careful or how good of a driver you are. At the track, sh*t can and will happen. Just ask Albert... :-)

Having crashed 2 perfectly nice street cars at the tracks I've learned my lessons and do not mind repeatedly sharing that experience with others, hoping that they would avoid such painful and expensive mistakes.

Albert

 

Bruce - if you ever come to Road Atlanta let me know!

 

Very true. At the end of the day there's really only two kinds of track drivers, those that have hit the wall...and those who will.

Btw, I'm hoping to video May 11th at Mosport, but in the meantime here's a a video of Calabogie Motorsport Park where I tracked the Jag last fall, and it gives you an idea of that local track and our beautiful country-side. The camera car is a BMW 320is following a well-sorted red '93 MR2 Turbo expertly driven by a particularly talented, handsome, and modest owner. He shamelessly slowed down a few times to let the camera car catch up, and exercised extreme restraint when an Elise came along to play in this one lap video. Not great video quality, but it gives you an idea. Next time there I'll hopefully be able to video the XKR in action.

One Lap of Calabogie Motorsports Park Oct '06 - YouTube

Bruce

 

I'll definitely do that...we'll take your car
Bruce

 

Nice, fun looking track. Where the "hell" is "Calabogie"???

Too bad that talented, handsome, modest driver of that red car was too modest to allow the car with the video to get close enough to its rear-end where we could have seen how well she handled and transitioned :-).

If there was enough monies involved, maybe someone could build a track with enough run-off areas to actually prevent those hard wall contacts. In CA, the SCCA owned Thunderhill track built out in the "middle of no-where" had huge runoff areas but, the problem was that they were not properly leveled or maintained. The rain would cut grooves and channels into the uneven soil which would catch the tire of a car going off sideways and send it barrel rolling. That is how the above mentioned friend rolled a loaner car 6 times. As long as you ran off straight ahead it was generally fine. I remember once my suspension broke in the Formula Mazda just ahead of the very highest speed, redlined 5th-gear corner. I purposely steered straight off the track and basically felt like I weed-whacked my way in waist-high weeds all the way to China.

So, I am looking forward to the XKR video, sounds and all. You are correct with your first sentence, I just did not want to sound too negative or scary to say the same. When I ran with NASA that had the "school" program, every weekend I saw some sour, depressed faces; the owners of various nice crashed street machines that were trying to figure out how to get home with the wreck. Yeah, me too, been there....

Albert

PS - checked out the racetrack and it looks like a great facility. I also like their "Mustang" program. Those Mustangs make great track cars; see the Boss 302 of present.