Hang on a sec! I've never heard of that happening before. I've seen the latch not close fully, but I've never heard anyone say that the top got stuck in the middle of opening or closing. Did I miss a thread? Who'd that happen to, because I'm curious about the circumstances.

 

Sam,
It did it to me twice on the close operation, once with the engine running and the other with it off.

 

I had not seen the latch not closing! That is a serious situation; I hope anyone that has that situation knows not to drive at high speeds when that takes place.

 

At the risk of again re-opening this debate I just want to see if my following analogies make sense in lay terms since few of us out here are electrical engineers, hydraulic engineers, or even engineers (although I am a structural engineer). But here is the way I am making sense of both systems.

Pressure relief system: this is the easier one for me. The analogy is having a measuring cup with water that you are filling. If you want to prevent the water going above a certain level, maybe you drill a hole in the container at that mark and no matter how much water you run into the container, it never goes above where you have drilled the hole. The excess is bled off and this is how I view the pressure relief valve.

Resistor: the easiest analogy for me is one of those cordless drills that have multiple speed (power) settings. If I hold the chuck and pull the trigger back all the way, it is difficult to keep the chuck from turning. If I hold the chuck and pull the trigger half way (lower speed due to less power) I can easily keep the chuck from rotating. Basically I have stalled out the motor and my impression is if I kept this up for a very long time I would do some damage. If I drive a screw with the trigger pulled all the way back, it easily goes into wood. If I try driving at reduced power, it takes longer and may not work at all (if the wood is too hard) so I am trying to do the task using lower efficiency.

Can the experts for both camps chime in on the appropriateness (or lack thereof) of these analogies?


Thanks,

Doug

 

Gus, I've said all along that I think the pressure relief valve is a better solution, but to be honest, three hundred dollars seems pretty pricey for off-the-shelf parts that can be purchased online for about $85. I understand that you and Walt went to some effort to figure out how to make the pressure relief system work, and you deserve to be repaid for your efforts, but a 350% markup seems kinda steep.

Then, when you consider the failure rate with the valve, I really question whether or not it's worth the $300 and the effort to install it, especially if the pump might need to be taken to a machine shop to have the plug removed (more $). I sent out almost fifty of the plug-and-play resistors, and I'm sure countless more were ordered and installed using Dennis' splicing instructions. I was only aware of one failure, you say there were two, and I take your word for it, but it seems like the failure rate with resistors might be lower than the failure rate with the relief valves. Have you guys shipped 50+ relief valves (at a profit of about $200 per unit, or $10K in profit for 50 valves)?

I've tried not to take sides in this debate, other than to say that I believe that the resistor is a viable solution. I don't recall Dennis ever saying that the relief valve wasn't a viable solution, but it seems that you take every opportunity to bash the resistor solution, even though it appears to have a higher success rate!

It seems to me that we have a conflict of interest here. You're a moderator of the forum, which gives you some clout among new members and others who are looking for advice. People look at you as an expert. You continually criticize the resistor solution, which can be installed for less than $10, while pushing your relief valve which costs nearly $300.

Also, I'd really like to see someone install a pressure gauge on the hydraulic line when they install a relief valve. When I started reading about the hose failures with the valve installed I was wondering if the valves were being adjusted properly before shipment. Do you or Walt actually hook the valve up to a hydraulic line to calibrate it? Do you simply turn the screw a certain number of turns, which should correspond to the proper pressure? Or do you just ship the valve to the customers assuming they were set at the proper pressure at the factory?

That's my two cents. Can't we all just get along? By the way... I see now that the uh... "less polite" posts have been deleted since I started typing this reply. I'm typing this in response to the posts that are no longer there.

 

You said it happened to others? Who?

If the latch doesn't close, you simply press the button again and it closes. You get the little warning on the dash that says "hood not latched". One more press of the button and it latches. It's only happened to me a couple of times, and the directions on what to do if it happens are fully documented in Dennis' documentation. You just had to get in another dig, didn't you? How old are you?

But... the fact that it has happened tells me that the system is operating at the lowest possible pressure.

 

Gus, seriously, I think you need to tell us who the other people are who have experienced the roof stoppage. You claimed it has happened to others. Neither Dennis nor I have ever heard that before. If someone else comes forward and says that it happened to them, then I apologize in advance, but I'm starting to wonder if your claim that other people have had the roof stop in mid-cycle is just an attempt to scare people away from the resistor solution and into the $300 relief valve that you're selling.

 

That is EXACTLY how the resistor solution works.

With the relief valve your analogy is close, but there's a spring loaded plug in the side of the glass. If the water gets too deep the plug opens up and allows the water to drain. If you put water into the glass even faster, the plug opens up wider to let the water drain faster. The deeper the water gets (higher pressure) the more the plug opens to maintain the water level (pressure) at the same point.

 

Hey Sam,

I used to think that way which is really sort of an anti-capitalist mentality but I don't mean to offend. If you have to replace a tail light lens or a wheel rim or some other specialized item on a car it always seems overpriced. After all, it is just a few hunks of plastic or metal, etc. Same thing for a computer--all off the shelf cheap items like resistors, chips, circuit boards. Basically the entity that takes the risk to assemble the product, market it, distribute it, etc. deserves any profit they are able to get.

Of course I realized from other posts I found on other forums that you can buy the parts and pieces of the relief valve from various suppliers for under $100. There is nothing stopping anyone from doing so.

In my case, I was not bothered by "rewarding" Gus and Walt for their painstaking efforts in coming up with their solution.

Just sayin'


Doug

 

I know the horse is down but I'm still going to kick it. I understand that the whole problem is that electronics don't shut off the pump fast enough after the movement has stopped in the system whether it be the top up and down or latch open closed. Is this correct? If so, can anything be done to reprogram the electronics? Jack

 

I am 100% capitalist, Doug. I've got no problem with people making gobs and gobs of money. Gus and Walt figured out the relief valve solution, and they deserve to profit from it. But I kinda look at this forum as a group of friends. We're here to help each other out, not gouge each other. The forum sponsors, such as Nalley and Gaudin, give a discount to the members. If I wanted to be an *** I could have done a group buy of valves, hoses, and adapters, sold them to members for $100 per kit, and still make a little money on the side. I didn't do that because it just would have been rude. I could also post the part numbers for the various pieces along with the websites where they can be purchased, and people could buy them on their own. But I'm not trying to hurt their business. They have every right to make money on their relief valve kits.

Go back through my posts where this issue has come up. I've said time and time again that I think the relief valve is the more elegant solution, or a better solution. I haven't criticized the relief valve ever. But every time the resistor solution comes up, Gus has to start criticizing it in one way or another. It's been proven to be at least as effective as the relief valve. There have been no instances of motor damage from the resistor, as Gus claimed there would be. It doesn't kill the battery as Gus claimed it would. It does reduce the pressure (apparently Gus hasn't gone to Dennis' website to read the documentation). In fact, it reduces the pressure so much that occasionally the latch doesn't close completely (I consider that I good thing since it shows me that the pressure is as low as it can possibly be. Simply pressing the button one more time closes the latch without any problems). I don't know why this debate is still going on, unless Gus is simply trying to scare people away from the resistor solution so that he can make more money by selling the relief valves.

Having said that, with the relief valves having a failure rate at least as high, if not higher, than the resistors, I wonder why anyone would spend nearly $300 on the relief valve when you could buy something just as effective for $10.

Still waiting for Gus to name the other people who have experienced stoppage of the convertible top in mid-cycle with the resistor installed.

 

Doug, I like your analogy and would think it is close to what we are saying.

Sam, I am not making a penny on any of the products on my page. But to answer your question best is to say he (Walt) is entitled to charge what he wants because it is his product. What I think you are leaving out of the equation is that material and labor go into making any product.

What Walt and I have said in the beginning is that this device will not prevent an already stressed system it will only delay the failure. Whether you think it is worth the $ you spend on it is up to you. What do you want? This also applies to the other system!

Sam, you are entitled to your opinion and no one wants you to take sides.

Sam, as for the pressure readings on the system LOOK ON MY PAGE! we have both.

Sam, your question can we get along? I have several years of background on this system and I do not tell an untruth.

Sam, If I thought I needed to justify my comments by documentation I would have made record of them. I talk to many on the phone and e-mail so no I do not have it and If I did I would not for privacy issues but it did happen to me on my test.

Sam, I cannot stop people from asking me questions. Never once did I think I needed to justify my comments with anyone.

 

Is this ever true!

I bet that is why the relief valve documentation gives instructions on what to do if, after installing the valve, the latch fails to close. I know it is why the voltage reduction instructions have similar info.

Relief valve: find a screw driver and adjust the screw on the valve until the latch operates successfully.

Voltage reduction: just release and re-press the rocker switch. Often this does it, since the motor makes max torque (max pump pressure) starting at zero RPM. Or, just turn the engine on ... an added 100 PSI or so of pressure is provided under alternator voltage.

This is important stuff. Never hurts to be reminded of it!

 

Making adjustments to the valve is not recommended. Lock the roof as indicated in the owner’s manual and find out why the latch did not close.

 

Clipped from the "Installation Guide" downloaded from the vendor's website:

... The operating pressure is too low ... Use a ¼ inch hex wrench to increase pressure. Insert the wrench into the pointed end of the valve. Turn clockwise to increase pressure. Adjust ¼ turn at a time. ...

 

I'm back!

 

Sam,

I did not claim anything, if anything suggested being cautious. I think you need to check your information.

 

OK! I have not seen this but I still stand behind my finding out why first.

This is the complete information

Troubleshooting Guide:
Note: This guide assumes that the roof system was working properly before this installation. This upgrade will not fix existing problems in the system. The purpose of this upgrade is to help prevent future problems.

Pump does not turn on:
The pump motor should make a noticeable whirring sound when running. Make sure the connector to the motor has made contact. The contacts have a tendency to pull out of the housing. Push the wires together to make the connection.

Pump runs but top does not move:

a. Make sure the manual valve is fully closed in the clockwise direction.
b. Double check that the connections to the solenoids are made. The solenoids are the two cylindrical devices on the top of the assembly. The connector housings on each solenoid and at the rear of the electronics rack have been known to come apart due to careless handling.

Top operates partially:

a. Verify that the pump is not sucking air. Watch the reservoir tank while a partner operates the top. If the pump is sucking air (this will be obvious to the observer) the oil is low or the pump needs to be leveled.
b. The operating pressure is too low. This will be apparent if the top stops about half way through the raise movement as this is the point of highest operating pressure. A lift cylinder that is leaking or otherwise impaired could require more pressure to operate The valve has been pre-adjusted to work with cars that have properly operating mechanical parts but inefficient mechanics can require more pressure to operate. Use a ¼ inch hex wrench to increase pressure. Insert the wrench into the pointed end of the valve. Turn clockwise to increase pressure. Adjust ¼ turn at a time. If increasing pressure does not remedy the problem contact Technical Support.

The latch fails to close fully:

Some latches have been noted to have excessive friction due the complex arrangement of sliding metal parts. This can be remedied by removing the cover across the top of the latch area and lubricating the latch mechanism with light grease.

 

Also, re: pricing. It should be easy for a backyard hobbiest to go ahead and gather up the various parts and pieces that go into making the relief valve, the resistor device, the device that allows you to remotely raise and lower the top, etc. and sell these for a modest profit or even no profit (it might just be fun for them to be doing this and that is their reward). However, when it comes to a large company putting together a kit to sell (as did LSI), you have to remember the overheads they are carrying like tools, assembly facility, business taxes, support of their corporate structure, health insurance for their employees, liability insurance, etc. When I had my own 2-person consulting firm for 19 years, there was no way I could compete with the guys working out of their homes. I can tell you that the overheads of running even a small business are huge and have to be passed along to someone.

I am just using LSI as an example and have no connection whatsoever with them. But I suspect their final pricing was the result of the product itself plus overheads plus a fair profit.

Doug

 

Thanks Doug! But no need for you to get yourself involved in this mess.