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Um... what was wrong with the old antifreeze? Why did someone need to invent new stuff? Does it cool better? Does it stay liquid at lower temps? What are the benefits of Dexcool and why the heck did someone have to mess with something as simple as antifreeze?
I'm just griping. I know it's all about money.
It's about environment - Dexcool and G-05 are longer life fluids. The old green stuff had to be changed more frequently. All mfgrs are being pushed to make vehicles more environmentally friendly and customers are demanding vehicles that require less maintenance. Longer life coolants, oils and technology that offer longer change intervals (synthetic oil), and the so-called "seal for life" units mean less maintenance and less waste fluids have less impact on the environment. As in any new technology (beta and VHS, at the time, for example), varieties of solutions come out, then one typically rises to the top.
Below is a writeup done by a member of the Superformance Cobra Group. It gives pretty much everything we need to know about the various coolants. Enjoy...
Jack
As winter nears I thought you guys might be interested in some of the
complexities in modern anti-freeze.
There are 3 basic types of engine antifreeze:
IAT (Inorganic Acid Technology) - This is the original old style
antifreeze, Ford Motor Company used this up through 2002 MY trucks, 2003
MY cars, usually Green in color. Service life 36k miles.
OAT (Organic Acid Technology) - Silicate free, GM started using this in
1996 called "Dex Cool" usually orange/red color. Meets Cat EC-1
requirements. This is used by Audi, Jaguar, Porsche, Volkswagen, Land
Rover & most Asian vehicles. Service life up to 150k miles.
HOAT (Hybrid Organic Acid Technology) - This is the newest antifreeze
formula. It contains small amounts of Silicates to prolong aluminum
component life and reduce cavitation wear of aluminum components. Ford
started using this in 2003 MY trucks, 2004 MY cars (Ford "Gold" Coolant,
WSS-M97B51-A1). This Coolant meets 'European G-05" specifications and is
used by Ford, Chrysler, Mercedes, BMW & Volvo. Service life up to 150k
miles.
The 3 basic antifreeze types, IAT, OAT & HOAT, are not interchangeable
nor compatible with one another. HOAT was chosen because it has small
amounts of silicates which better protect the aluminum components in the
cooling system. There have been problems with OAT based coolants not
properly protecting aluminum components. In addition Ford Motor Company
did testing with OAT in the past and ran into problems with it. There
have been numerous problems with aluminum and seal degradation from OAT
coolant in vehicles not properly designed to run it. GM has had numerous
problems with OAT coolant in several of its vehicles since introduction
in 1996.
OAT technology was co-developed by GM & Texaco to produce the Dex Cool.
Chevron purchased Texaco and now markets and OAT product under the Delo
name. OAT technology was developed to try and find an antifreeze that
could be used for extended drain intervals.
HOAT technology was developed after problems with OAT technology (Note:
there is also a NOAT (Nitrate) technology that is similar to OAT, that
was developed by Texaco at Caterpillars insistence to reduce cavitation
problems in diesel engines, but is currently not used by any automotive
manufacture). In addition, Cummins totally backed away from the use of
OAT coolant after experiencing silicone engine seal degradation,
aluminum radiator failures, and complete plugging of radiators, these
problems have also occurred in GM & Caterpillar equipment. In addition
GM has experienced numerous cases of cast-iron block corrosion in 4.3L
engines running OAT coolant.
Ford, Chrysler and many European vehicles now use HOAT coolant after
problems with OAT coolant were found. All coolant types meet the ASTM
spec D3306, but this specification is not nearly as stringent as some of
the independent manufactures specs.
GM is facing ongoing lawsuits over OAT problems even in 2005-2006
vehicles and has done a few things, 1) Issued directives that OAT
coolants never be installed in a vehicle that was not factory filled
with OAT, 2) shortened the mileage interval between changes, 3)
redesigned the water pump to eliminate cavitation problems experienced
in vehicles running OAT coolant, 4) stated to never mix OAT with any
other type of coolant.
Ethylene Glycol (EG) is the most common base of antifreeze, be it the
plain old silicate style, OAT or HOAT.
Propylene Glycol (PG) is the other choice of base for antifreeze be it
the plain old silicate style, OAT or HOAT.
The biggest difference between the two is that PG is less toxic to
animals and humans than EG, common brand of PG is Sierra, PG is used in
the food industry, PG does not conduct heat quite as well as EG but the
two are very close. PG costs more than EG. The base stock of antifreeze
be it EG or PG makes up 95% of the antifreeze, it is the additive
package that is different among the types of antifreeze.
Evans NPG+ waterless coolant is a nontoxic mixture of glycols, but uses
no water so it does not develop the cavitation problems that water -
glycol mixtures do. With the Evans waterless coolant you do not get the
vapor boiling of water - glycol systems. However Evans coolant still
contains a corrosion inhibitor package. One downside to Evans NPG+
coolant is that it is only recommended down to -20F to -30F, so extreme
cold applications are a problem. Evans does benefit from being
waterless, however, there is no current manufacture that recommends the
use of Evans coolant and so the long term wide field use testing is not
available. There are FTE members who use Evans NPG+ successfully and it
has been beneficial in high heat situations, just understand it does not
meet warranty requirements.
Since Evans has a very low surface tension, it can get into the smallest
areas which might not leak with conventional coolant, such as head and
intake gaskets, and seep through according to Evans.
Evans coolant also states, "DO NOT modify your Ford factory coolant
system in anyway other than flushing ---- NO drilling of hole in cap,
etc this ONLY applies to Hot Rods and other high performance vehicles"
Based on the article it sounds as though it would be best to use HOAT on a MY99 (VIN break point not withstanding) and up. This assumes a complete flush of the system. So, Steve11, what is your response to that?
I had no idea of the problems with OAT. Now I want to flush that out of all my cars designed for it or not. Hell, I ASSUMED it was good stuff. I have it in my iron block old chevys, my 04 Ford Truck 5.4L, 98 Suburban, AND Kawasaki...yikes
I would only use the HOAT (Zerex G-05) if your MY took the original green as it is compatible with green and a direct long-life substitute.
This is the unfortunate result of a little bit of knowledge regarding Dexcool. Dexcool (OAT in general) is a darned good product. The application has to be correct. Most people including many techs I know do not fully understand the issues with GM and Dexcool and usually overreact.
In the case of GM, in the early 1990s they hastily specced OAT in all of their products without fully testing. Of course that haste caught them off guard in only TWO models out if GM's entire car line. The mechanical issues with these two models didn't even show up until 3-5 years out in the field, then GM did whatever they could to deny, delay and fight lawsuits, rather than the right thing. In these two models, a single intake manifold seal that came in contact with the Dexcool eventually melted and gelled pieces which eventually caused overheating and engine failures. Meanwhile, Ford/Jaguar were watching all of this and testing themselves. Jaguar didn't incorporate OAT until mid 99, and only after they were much more sure all the right components were designed into the cooling system.
In conclusion, you can do whatever you want with your own car, of course. I highly recommend the correctly engineered and specced product for the corresponding MYs for coolants.
Thanks Steve, I bought Zerex G-05 yesterday at NAPA hard to find otherwise. Just finished changing all the timing chains and tensioners, car runs much better, doing a three hour driving flush with Zerex G-05 and will then flush and refill and be done for a while.
There was some snotty like build up on the plastic parts of the cooling system but hoses and resivour were clean.
About a year and I half ago a radiator hose popped loose on my Expedition. I limped in to a gas station/convenience store and all they had was the pre-mixed green stuff. I didn't even think about it, I just filled it up and forgot about it. The car's been running fine ever since. This thread got me scared, though, so I decided to drain, flush, and refill my radiator. The manual says I'm supposed to use the YELLOW stuff. So I went to Advance Auto, where they had the green stuff, the pink stuff, the orange stuff, and something else that's supposed to be compatible with "everything". It's made by Prestone and it says in big letters "COMPATIBLE WITH ALL TYPES OF ANTIFREEZE!" Anyway, that's what I bought since it is supposed to be compatible. It turns out the stuff is yellow, too, even though it didn't say that on the bottle. I hope I have the right stuff. I had no idea that antifreeze could be so confusing.
These are the correct coolants for specific models by VIN
Early 1997 models were fitted with blue green coolant up to VIN 001245
From VIN 001246 to 042634yellowDOW S542 coolant was fitted (change every 2 years)
From 042635 WSS M97B44-D long life coolant was fitted
Need a little clarification, please. I have a VIN ending with NA30264. Where does that put me?
I told H2OBoy that I was working on the car yesterday with the kids. I told the stay away from the line. I pointed at it. (it was the coolant line from the coolant tree to the reservoir. While working on the bypass hose. I snapped the line. $30 bucks down the drain (MJA4560BE).
I talk with my buddy H2OBoy we agree I can get away with a hose line from OReily's. I buy the one just 1 size to small. I force it on. Tried to pull it off to get the exchange and SNAP. Break the reservoir nipple at the body of the reservoir. SOB!
Anyways. I think, I have to buy the $214 part (MJD4400AB). Unless someone here has done the same thing. LOL.
you talking the expansion tank? $165-$170 from our site sponsor Gaudin Jaguar or Nalley. I think there is a spare nipple on the expansion tank, you could try patching your broken, using the spare, or just do the 'right' thing and spring for a new tank. Sorry bud, that's a tough day. I would have left the 'one size too small' hose on there...its a pressured system, it would have worked.
I have intermittent 'engine coolant low' warning on the message center. Can I top off the coolant or do I need to have it flushed first?
Thx!
Sister Mary Europanasia once told me there are no stupid questions. Let that be the rule.
IF you know what kind of coolant is in there, and you mix 50/50 with distilled (someone may not like that) water then it's OK to top off.
Edit: If you don't know the coolant type, you could add just water going into a warm season, but not too many times on account of it dilutes the coolant a bit. Then you'd want to replace, not top off, the stuff before next cold season.
Sorry, late reaction to article mentioned There is no problem with OAT on our cars, on the contrary even; Jaguar has extended the drain intervals to 8 or 10 years iirc.
I prefer not to have any silicone in the system as that is abrasive stuff. The reason it is there is as stated in the article, for aluminum parts that could degrade due to cavitation. But we don’t have any aluminum parts that could degrade, i.e. like aluminum water pumps that Ford uses and the other car manufacturer’s mentioned (that use the HOAT).
Your engine will not explode when you use HOAT, but imho it is a step back for our cars.
To Iron Jaw:
If you have a MY earlier than 99 (an AJ26), use green, Zerez G-05 (yellow), or Prestone mixes all (yellow).
If you have a MY later than 99 (an AJ27) use OAT like factory, or Prestone Dexcool (Orange).
Originally Posted by JagYour
I don't think an AJ27 is a prerequistite for dex cool. They began with VIN #031303 whereas dex cool began at VIN#042634.
Based on these responses, it would be safe to assume that my 1998 with VIN 023193 would be using green or yellow. However, the label on my coolant res explicitly calls for collant ref WSS-M897B44-D which is Prestone Dex-Cool, coloured orange.
So to play it safe, I will be following the instructions on the engine and using the orange Dex-Cool in a MY 98 with a VIN considered to be below the demarcation point for its use.
Based on these responses, it would be safe to assume that my 1998 with VIN 023193 would be using green or yellow. However, the label on my coolant res explicitly calls for collant ref WSS-M897B44-D which is Prestone Dex-Cool, coloured orange.
So to play it safe, I will be following the instructions on the engine and using the orange Dex-Cool in a MY 98 with a VIN considered to be below the demarcation point for its use.
First thing, has the coolant reservoir ever been replaced? If so, that guidance on the label goes right out the window.
Second thing, dip a piece of paper towel in the reservoir and see what colour you pull out.
Third, consider flushing, flushing, flushing and then ... flushing some more. Even if you go with what you think is the same coolant ... just to cut the risk of mixing.
Ok, so for a MY98 one would not choose a OAT type? if so what does the ESD M97B49-A spec translates to these days?
confused beyong belief here after reading this, from jag-lover forums(apparently from a Shell specialist): "Ford Spec. (ESD-M97B49-A) is an obsolete Ford coolant specification that was replace by (WSS-M97B44-C), which was later replaced by Ford (WSS-M97B44-D). The current specification requires an ethylene glycol based coolant with Organic Acid Technology (OAT). The equivalent product for the current specification is GM DEX-COOL."
Ok, so for a MY98 one would not choose a OAT type? if so what does the ESD M97B49-A spec translates to these days?
confused beyong belief here after reading this, from jag-lover forums(apparently from a Shell specialist): "Ford Spec. (ESD-M97B49-A) is an obsolete Ford coolant specification that was replace by (WSS-M97B44-C), which was later replaced by Ford (WSS-M97B44-D). The current specification requires an ethylene glycol based coolant with Organic Acid Technology (OAT). The equivalent product for the current specification is GM DEX-COOL."
and thats a OAT at the bottom line...
Getting away from manufactures specs I believe the spec you need to meet is ASTM D3306 for a AJ27 engine.
OK, thanks, have tried that spec.nr just now and it is a little confusion all the same, the Febi Bilstein partfinder(https://partsfinder.bilsteingroup.co...02?make=Jaguar) finds a products that meets that spec, but at the same time its compatible with Ford WSS-M97B44-D, which is a OAT(?) oil specs takes a while to pin down what manufacturer to go with, but this antifreeze stuff is really beoynd confusing,
have sent Febi a mail and asked what I'm supposed to use, the one listed above is for the later 99(from Chassis No.: 42635)and onwards with OAT
It can be confusing - and you can't rely on the colour of the existing coolant as an identifier. This is the Jaguar chart:
Early cars (up to VIN 042634) were originally equipped with the DOW coolant. This was green, but could look yellowish in the expansion tank. Thereafter, it was WSS M97B44-D which, according to Jaguar, "may be recognized by its distinctive orange color".
My car arrived with (I think) DOW, but I did a flush and replaced with Jaguar WSS-spec coolant when I did the first change.
The golden rule is never to mix different types. If you are sure what's in there, then you can top up in between as and when necessary. If you're not, then just use distilled water (beware of over-diluting, though) until you can get to do a flush and replace.
12-29-2010 | 03:54 PM
Geez I agree it has become complicated
