Convertible pump resistance values
#21
05-01-2015, 10:10 AM
Senior Member
Stamford
I had to deal with the same problem recently.
Blowing fuses after green shower and no use for a while.
Problem turned out to be in the motor not the selenoids.
Separate motor from the pump body.
Pop open the motor case and lubricate the rear bearing, close the case, shoot 12 volts directly from the battery to the plug and massage back and forth by reversing the polarity.
Reinstall motor.
here is the link to my post.
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...lowing-136196/
good luck
I had to deal with the same problem recently.
Blowing fuses after green shower and no use for a while.
Problem turned out to be in the motor not the selenoids.
Separate motor from the pump body.
Pop open the motor case and lubricate the rear bearing, close the case, shoot 12 volts directly from the battery to the plug and massage back and forth by reversing the polarity.
Reinstall motor.
here is the link to my post.
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...lowing-136196/
good luck
Last edited by Autobahn kid; 05-01-2015 at 10:19 AM.
The following users liked this post:
Stamford (05-06-2015)
#22
05-01-2015, 10:46 AM
Veteran Member
I am with you on this.
Stamford
I had to deal with the same problem recently.
Blowing fuses after green shower and no use for a while.
Problem turned out to be in the motor not the selenoids.
Separate motor from the pump body.
Pop open the motor case and lubricate the rear bearing, close the case, shoot 12 volts directly from the battery to the plug and massage back and forth by reversing the polarity.
Reinstall motor.
here is the link to my post.
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...lowing-136196/
good luck
I had to deal with the same problem recently.
Blowing fuses after green shower and no use for a while.
Problem turned out to be in the motor not the selenoids.
Separate motor from the pump body.
Pop open the motor case and lubricate the rear bearing, close the case, shoot 12 volts directly from the battery to the plug and massage back and forth by reversing the polarity.
Reinstall motor.
here is the link to my post.
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...lowing-136196/
good luck
The following users liked this post:
Stamford (05-06-2015)
#23
05-01-2015, 11:15 AM
Curiouser and curiouser. Both solenoids off, no movement, fuse does not blow. Blue connector connected to either blue or orange solenoid (orange connector off), no movement, fuse does not blow. When I cross-connect blue connector with orange solenoid and orange connector on blue, fuse blows. When I disconnect blue connector from blue solenoid, leaving orange attached to orange, the fuse blows. Connect orange connector to blue solenoid, fuse blows. I can hear the relays clicking and tried swapping them for the hell of it, no change. I got the green shower last year and disconnected the hoses from the pump and capped the ports and use the wrench to open and close the latch. Worked fine for a few days, then one morning, no go. I assume the orange connector/solenoid gets a signal via the opened latch to start pumping up the top, could my problem be at the latch? Both solenoid connectors show open circuit across their contacts. Both solenoids 12 ohm.
You need to isolate the pump from the car and test it. Get some heavy jumper wires, add a fuse to one of them, [40A] and run the pump directly from the nearby battery. If fuse blows, you need a pump. If not, you gotta run the circuits from the fuse to the relays and pump.
I suspect there may be one shorted commutator winding in the pump. If that's the case, the motor will spin until it hits that commutator, then pop the fuse.
Good luck!
#24
05-01-2015, 11:45 AM
Veteran Member
Stamford
I had to deal with the same problem recently.
Blowing fuses after green shower and no use for a while.
Problem turned out to be in the motor not the selenoids.
Separate motor from the pump body.
Pop open the motor case and lubricate the rear bearing, close the case, shoot 12 volts directly from the battery to the plug and massage back and forth by reversing the polarity.
Reinstall motor.
here is the link to my post.
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...lowing-136196/
good luck
I had to deal with the same problem recently.
Blowing fuses after green shower and no use for a while.
Problem turned out to be in the motor not the selenoids.
Separate motor from the pump body.
Pop open the motor case and lubricate the rear bearing, close the case, shoot 12 volts directly from the battery to the plug and massage back and forth by reversing the polarity.
Reinstall motor.
here is the link to my post.
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...lowing-136196/
good luck
I remember you got a fix from a local shop, which is great, rather then going to great expense.
A mechanical problem can't cause the fuse to blow. The highest current that the motor can draw occurs at zero RPM and is about 25 amps (12 volts / 0.5 ohms) IF all the electrical components are in tact. Whenever the motor is spinning, at any speed, under any load, it draws less current than that 25 amps. Worst case, even If the motor seizes, it draws 25 amps. (The fuse in question here is 40 amps.)
There had to be something electrical going on in your motor to blow the fuse.
Last edited by Dennis07; 05-01-2015 at 03:11 PM. Reason: clarity
#25
05-01-2015, 11:55 AM
Veteran Member
I disagree here. Very unlikely the pump would need to be replaced, and that's a good thing as it can be very expensive. Several cheap-to-fix things could be going on in the motor that would cause the fuse to blow.
Last edited by Dennis07; 05-01-2015 at 12:00 PM.
#26
05-01-2015, 12:20 PM
Veteran Member
John,
I think xjrguy is on the right track. I had assumed that the Security Module would have no way to know if the solenoids were both disconnected and so would run the pump when you hit the roof switch. I tested this on my car and it ain't so. I don't know how it knows, but it does; with both solenoids disconnected the pump does not run.
So even though the initial electrical measurements you did on the pump motor look good, I think now that the motor itself is most likely the culprit. I agree that to test it from the battery is best. Normal test leads would be OK if you test just for a second or two (I have run these motors this way).
I think xjrguy is on the right track. I had assumed that the Security Module would have no way to know if the solenoids were both disconnected and so would run the pump when you hit the roof switch. I tested this on my car and it ain't so. I don't know how it knows, but it does; with both solenoids disconnected the pump does not run.
So even though the initial electrical measurements you did on the pump motor look good, I think now that the motor itself is most likely the culprit. I agree that to test it from the battery is best. Normal test leads would be OK if you test just for a second or two (I have run these motors this way).
Last edited by Dennis07; 05-01-2015 at 12:25 PM.
#27
05-01-2015, 12:25 PM
Dennis, we're all big boys here. Not everyone is the tinkerer you may be. I think it's understood that "if it blows, you need a pump" means the pump is the fault. If you are courageous enough to take it apart and fix it, you can do that. If you are not, you will replace it.
I was pointing out a strategy for Stamford to determine whether the problem is in the car, or in the pump assy. That way he can maybe zero in and get to the bottom of it.
In that sense, I don't believe there is anything in my comments to disagree with.
Cheers,
I was pointing out a strategy for Stamford to determine whether the problem is in the car, or in the pump assy. That way he can maybe zero in and get to the bottom of it.
In that sense, I don't believe there is anything in my comments to disagree with.
Cheers,
#28
05-01-2015, 12:33 PM
Veteran Member
XJRGuy,
No harm, no fowl.
I think your test strategy is a good one (see post #26). There's a link in my sig. line on fixing motor faults (DIY or local electrical shop) which maybe you'll find to be of interest. I do believe that replacing the pump (or paying $400 for a rebuild) is a seldom-needed last resort.
No harm, no fowl.
I think your test strategy is a good one (see post #26). There's a link in my sig. line on fixing motor faults (DIY or local electrical shop) which maybe you'll find to be of interest. I do believe that replacing the pump (or paying $400 for a rebuild) is a seldom-needed last resort.
Last edited by Dennis07; 05-01-2015 at 12:52 PM.
#29
05-02-2015, 04:06 PM
Well, the solenoids turned out to be a big red herring. This afternoon, I did what I should have done long ago, and that is apply 12v directly to the pump, isolated from the rest of the system. Sure enough, the fuse blew instantly, regardless of polarity. I tried taking it apart and lubricating the bearing, but no joy. Another fuse blown. So I've removed the motor from the assembly and will check it as much as I can following the Dennis's instruction sticky. But for actual repair, I'll be checking locally to see if there's a shop that can do the work. Otherwise, next stop is Top Hydraulics. I'll update as soon as I get further info.
Thanks all for your assistance and wisdom!
Thanks all for your assistance and wisdom!
Last edited by Stamford; 05-02-2015 at 05:21 PM.
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Gus (05-02-2015)
#30
05-02-2015, 05:58 PM
Veteran Member
John, the delay in testing the motor directly is my fault. I got fooled by thinking the motor must have been running normally during your tests with both solenoids unplugged. In fact, the control system detects when both solenoids are unplugged and does not even try to run the motor. Never assume!
The bearing could not cause the fuse to blow.
Proposition for you: should you decide you've gone a far as you want to in troubleshooting the motor, I've got a working spare here and I'd be very interested in looking inside a failed motor. We could swap motors and, with a little luck, I may be able to fix yours and then we can swap back.
Let me know if you want to go this way.
The bearing could not cause the fuse to blow.
Proposition for you: should you decide you've gone a far as you want to in troubleshooting the motor, I've got a working spare here and I'd be very interested in looking inside a failed motor. We could swap motors and, with a little luck, I may be able to fix yours and then we can swap back.
Let me know if you want to go this way.
Last edited by Dennis07; 05-02-2015 at 06:28 PM.
#32
05-03-2015, 12:24 AM
Senior Member
Dennis that is a very generous offer, Stamford should jump at it.
Make sure the motor is for the same year, the later models have a different connection and shaft.
You are right, I did send the motor to my alternator rebuilder, he even got his brother involved, but was quite embarrassed when he returned it as they could find nothing wrong with it except for the stuck bearing.
Prior to that only the brushes were massaged and cleaned, one was stuck and not making contact. Other than that nothing was repaired.
I could make the motor turn in either direction by applying current with my probe for a couple of revolutions. If I applied current constantly the fuse on the probe would blow. Probe's fuse being smaller than 40 amps.
So I am curious to see what you find on Stamford's motor.
Make sure the motor is for the same year, the later models have a different connection and shaft.
You are right, I did send the motor to my alternator rebuilder, he even got his brother involved, but was quite embarrassed when he returned it as they could find nothing wrong with it except for the stuck bearing.
Prior to that only the brushes were massaged and cleaned, one was stuck and not making contact. Other than that nothing was repaired.
I could make the motor turn in either direction by applying current with my probe for a couple of revolutions. If I applied current constantly the fuse on the probe would blow. Probe's fuse being smaller than 40 amps.
So I am curious to see what you find on Stamford's motor.
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Dennis07 (05-03-2015)
#33
05-03-2015, 06:26 AM
Veteran Member
Not sure what was going on in your motor, but sometimes just taking things apart and handling them can clean conductive dust out of where it should not be. Maybe that was part of it. The bearing needing a lube would not cause the fuse to blow.
Last edited by Dennis07; 05-03-2015 at 12:47 PM. Reason: clarity
#34
05-03-2015, 08:39 AM
Thanks, Autobahn, you saved us both some time and trouble. Was a nice offer, anyway. But I'm still happy the problem at least has been isolated to the pump and not further upstream. I'll be visiting an old-line electric motor business here in Stamford tomorrow and I'll report back what they say. I can't wait to put the top down. The sun is back!
#35
05-03-2015, 09:09 AM
Veteran Member
Here's hoping. I bet they'll nail it.
I'm very suspicious of that noise suppression component (tranzorb). This is what Stratohammer found to have failed recently.
In turning over a few more rocks ... it turns out some multi-meters measure resistance in such a way that they might not "see" a failed tranzorb as a short, and so would indicate ~ 0.5 ohms across the armature ... i.e. the value an in-tact system would have, and the value you measured.
But at operating voltages, ~ 12 volts, a failed tranzorb could act (nearly) as a short and blow the fuse.
So I'm putting my money on the tranzorb as the bad actor.
I'm very suspicious of that noise suppression component (tranzorb). This is what Stratohammer found to have failed recently.
In turning over a few more rocks ... it turns out some multi-meters measure resistance in such a way that they might not "see" a failed tranzorb as a short, and so would indicate ~ 0.5 ohms across the armature ... i.e. the value an in-tact system would have, and the value you measured.
But at operating voltages, ~ 12 volts, a failed tranzorb could act (nearly) as a short and blow the fuse.
So I'm putting my money on the tranzorb as the bad actor.
Last edited by Dennis07; 05-03-2015 at 12:49 PM. Reason: clean-up
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Norri (05-03-2015)
#37
05-03-2015, 06:25 PM
Senior Member
#38
05-03-2015, 06:57 PM
Veteran Member
The diode-pair (tranzorb), in isolation, should test as open circuit with either polarity. Any other result is pretty conclusive ... it's bad.
The converse is, unfortunately, not true. Depending on the meter we're using, we could see open circuit even on a failed device. Testing while it's in parallel with a 0.5 ohm armature (that's where it lives in the motor) adds other complications.
I'm going to try to come up with a conclusive test we can use for the tranzorb without disturbing the motor.
The converse is, unfortunately, not true. Depending on the meter we're using, we could see open circuit even on a failed device. Testing while it's in parallel with a 0.5 ohm armature (that's where it lives in the motor) adds other complications.
I'm going to try to come up with a conclusive test we can use for the tranzorb without disturbing the motor.
Last edited by Dennis07; 05-04-2015 at 05:26 AM. Reason: clarity
#39
05-04-2015, 05:32 AM
Veteran Member
Question for Stamford:
The meter you used to measure the motor ... does it have a "diode test" function? Probably there would be a little diode icon somewhere on the face.
(That function, if it's present, can't be used for our purposes but it tells us something about how the meter goes about doing resistance measurements.)
The meter you used to measure the motor ... does it have a "diode test" function? Probably there would be a little diode icon somewhere on the face.
(That function, if it's present, can't be used for our purposes but it tells us something about how the meter goes about doing resistance measurements.)
Last edited by Dennis07; 05-04-2015 at 05:40 AM.
#40
05-04-2015, 03:55 PM
Yes, it does have a setting with a diode symbol.
I took the motor to a repair shop this morning. I told the guy that I'd done some basic continuity and resistance tests but had not found anything amiss. I mentioned that I had been told that there is a diode in the motor that could possibly be a source of trouble. He told me that if it were the diode he didn't know what he could do for me as his shop really didn't work on auto motors; they were industrial/commercial oriented. But he offered to apply some power to it and see what happens. He came back and said the motor actually ran, but started to smoke. Sorta good news/bad news. But he volunteered to open it up and see what he could find, as maybe there's something he can do. Hope to hear back Tuesday afternoon.
I took the motor to a repair shop this morning. I told the guy that I'd done some basic continuity and resistance tests but had not found anything amiss. I mentioned that I had been told that there is a diode in the motor that could possibly be a source of trouble. He told me that if it were the diode he didn't know what he could do for me as his shop really didn't work on auto motors; they were industrial/commercial oriented. But he offered to apply some power to it and see what happens. He came back and said the motor actually ran, but started to smoke. Sorta good news/bad news. But he volunteered to open it up and see what he could find, as maybe there's something he can do. Hope to hear back Tuesday afternoon.