Engine start issue
#21
08-27-2022, 12:24 PM
You need to rule the fuel pump (and regulation) in or out permanently. Best would be a fuel gauge. It seems like there was fuel pressure when it happened once before, evidenced by the shrader valve check you mentioned. Second best would be to read it from the fuel pressure sensor. It should read 55psi pretty much all the time. This is standard OBDII, a cheap ELM327 should be able to read it.
For your code reader, check if you can "force" the protocol to ISO-9141. Our cars have active SCP and CAN buses as well, but OBDII is only available on the older ISO-9141 bus. IOW, make sure your reader is not reading just CAN. As others have pointed out, there is at least one code available at all times (Either OBD monitors completed P1111 or not completed P1000). If you have a JLR code reader, maybe start with the OBDII function.
FWIW, if you have P1000, it means the power to the ECU was interrupted and the monitors have to be re-run. It is consistent with disconnecting the battery for the replacement of the fuel pump, but maybe it's been too long. I'd say check that power distribution block in the trunk. It's been know to loosen up and cause frustrating sometimes problems like this one. Also check the battery cables for warmth, indicative of internal resistance/damage. Last, check the voltage at the power post in the engine compartment when you crank. If it dips too low, the control modules will not work. Are you getting any TRAC/ABS errors in the message center?
Best of luck, keep us posted.
For your code reader, check if you can "force" the protocol to ISO-9141. Our cars have active SCP and CAN buses as well, but OBDII is only available on the older ISO-9141 bus. IOW, make sure your reader is not reading just CAN. As others have pointed out, there is at least one code available at all times (Either OBD monitors completed P1111 or not completed P1000). If you have a JLR code reader, maybe start with the OBDII function.
FWIW, if you have P1000, it means the power to the ECU was interrupted and the monitors have to be re-run. It is consistent with disconnecting the battery for the replacement of the fuel pump, but maybe it's been too long. I'd say check that power distribution block in the trunk. It's been know to loosen up and cause frustrating sometimes problems like this one. Also check the battery cables for warmth, indicative of internal resistance/damage. Last, check the voltage at the power post in the engine compartment when you crank. If it dips too low, the control modules will not work. Are you getting any TRAC/ABS errors in the message center?
Best of luck, keep us posted.
1. Fuel Pressure is 55psi but will increase at times up to 65 psi per OBD2 reader.
2. Battery cables are cool to touch. But where and what does “power distribution block” look like?
3. Check voltage on power post - where is post located in engine compartment and how do I check voltage.
4. Trac/abs errors - no errors.
#22
08-27-2022, 12:36 PM
Yeah Man... Intermittent problems are no no fun. I've had situations where I HOPED the damn car would just break down or show me something bad...
Did the stall EVER correspond with a check engine light?
New connectors are not hard to find. It's basically Ford stuff. If you figure out what's playing up, even if you are not sure what it is, photograph it, post it up, and folks here can figure it out and even help chase the new connector. There is a GREAT "portable" soldering set on Amazon, and believe it or not soldering wire ends together gets super easy, although a little time consuming.
If it in fact IS an electrical gremlin, a wiring issue, this sort of thing CC's approach makes all kinds of sense to me as well. On some weekend day put the car in a good spot in the drive, hood and trunk open, car started and idling, just go around and start poking at any and all wiring looms you can find in the engine bay.
I'm not clear at how familiar you are with all the different operating systems, but there are important harnesses on both sides of the engine running back to front front to back. I mean, it'll take an hour or two. Bring a drink. Uncover all the fuse boxes in the engine bay, wiggle fuses, relays, ANYTHING you see that is "electrical". There are import wire sets clipped to both cam covers. The Mass Air Flow Sensor wire set. The looms for the plugs. The list goes on and on. Eyeball stuff. The coolant temp sensor. Get a new CTS if you never have. If you have the courage REACH under the car and jiggle around the crank position sensor. There are a lot of bits and pieces.
If you have a coupe can you get to the top of the gas tank? Connector there. Connections INSIDE of the tank, believe it or not. Then, fuel pump relays in the trunk fuse box. Then all kinds of fuses and stuff under the hood. Man, you just really got to get in there. You're going to get to KNOW the car better AND find your issue. Time will tell.
Folks will help out!
Did the stall EVER correspond with a check engine light?
New connectors are not hard to find. It's basically Ford stuff. If you figure out what's playing up, even if you are not sure what it is, photograph it, post it up, and folks here can figure it out and even help chase the new connector. There is a GREAT "portable" soldering set on Amazon, and believe it or not soldering wire ends together gets super easy, although a little time consuming.
If it in fact IS an electrical gremlin, a wiring issue, this sort of thing CC's approach makes all kinds of sense to me as well. On some weekend day put the car in a good spot in the drive, hood and trunk open, car started and idling, just go around and start poking at any and all wiring looms you can find in the engine bay.
I'm not clear at how familiar you are with all the different operating systems, but there are important harnesses on both sides of the engine running back to front front to back. I mean, it'll take an hour or two. Bring a drink. Uncover all the fuse boxes in the engine bay, wiggle fuses, relays, ANYTHING you see that is "electrical". There are import wire sets clipped to both cam covers. The Mass Air Flow Sensor wire set. The looms for the plugs. The list goes on and on. Eyeball stuff. The coolant temp sensor. Get a new CTS if you never have. If you have the courage REACH under the car and jiggle around the crank position sensor. There are a lot of bits and pieces.
If you have a coupe can you get to the top of the gas tank? Connector there. Connections INSIDE of the tank, believe it or not. Then, fuel pump relays in the trunk fuse box. Then all kinds of fuses and stuff under the hood. Man, you just really got to get in there. You're going to get to KNOW the car better AND find your issue. Time will tell.
Folks will help out!
The CEL light only came on after I had tried to crank the car multiple times when the engine stopped firing. It did not come on when the car did not start up when the problem surfaced last week only after repeated attempts to start.
Not a coupe its a convertible so getting to the fuel pump is a bear.
Should there be any looseness in a wire at a connector?
Thanks
#23
08-27-2022, 02:00 PM
Veteran Member
There will normally be a little wiggle of the pin in a connector but far less than the wipe length of the contacts so it should not affect the contact.
Does it always crank and not fire or have you had cases where the starter doesn’t engage when you turn the key. A main electrical problem can result in intermittent starter behavior as well.
You might try jiggling wires on the fuel pressure sensor also. Right side, toward the front of the fuel rail, 3 wire connector. OBD knows what the sensor is saying but not whether it is right or not. If there is a fault with the sensor or wiring it may say 55psi when actual is far less.
Does it always crank and not fire or have you had cases where the starter doesn’t engage when you turn the key. A main electrical problem can result in intermittent starter behavior as well.
You might try jiggling wires on the fuel pressure sensor also. Right side, toward the front of the fuel rail, 3 wire connector. OBD knows what the sensor is saying but not whether it is right or not. If there is a fault with the sensor or wiring it may say 55psi when actual is far less.
#24
08-27-2022, 06:16 PM
Veteran Member
White wire ?
Was/is it one of the white wires sticking out of the top of the fuel pressure regulator (FPR) in the trunk? May be telling. Little silver box with like 6wires going into and out of it. A Red, Red Yellow, 2 White, a Black and a Brown... All fuel pump stuff.
From memory the 2 white wires that come from the ECU (looow voltage mA signal wires for fuel pressure) regulate fuel pressure at the FPR. This, coupled with a high pressure reading (you may have just gotten this reading due to a shut down of the engine, then a prime of the pump without ever starting the car???) you reported might be telling something with the wiring there.
Was/is it one of the white wires sticking out of the top of the fuel pressure regulator (FPR) in the trunk? May be telling. Little silver box with like 6wires going into and out of it. A Red, Red Yellow, 2 White, a Black and a Brown... All fuel pump stuff.
From memory the 2 white wires that come from the ECU (looow voltage mA signal wires for fuel pressure) regulate fuel pressure at the FPR. This, coupled with a high pressure reading (you may have just gotten this reading due to a shut down of the engine, then a prime of the pump without ever starting the car???) you reported might be telling something with the wiring there.
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#25
08-27-2022, 08:33 PM
White wire ?
Was/is it one of the white wires sticking out of the top of the fuel pressure regulator (FPR) in the trunk? May be telling. Little silver box with like 6wires going into and out of it. A Red, Red Yellow, 2 White, a Black and a Brown... All fuel pump stuff.
From memory the 2 white wires that come from the ECU (looow voltage mA signal wires for fuel pressure) regulate fuel pressure at the FPR. This, coupled with a high pressure reading (you may have just gotten this reading due to a shut down of the engine, then a prime of the pump without ever starting the car???) you reported might be telling something with the wiring there.
Was/is it one of the white wires sticking out of the top of the fuel pressure regulator (FPR) in the trunk? May be telling. Little silver box with like 6wires going into and out of it. A Red, Red Yellow, 2 White, a Black and a Brown... All fuel pump stuff.
From memory the 2 white wires that come from the ECU (looow voltage mA signal wires for fuel pressure) regulate fuel pressure at the FPR. This, coupled with a high pressure reading (you may have just gotten this reading due to a shut down of the engine, then a prime of the pump without ever starting the car???) you reported might be telling something with the wiring there.
I did not have time to check the “white” wire in the trunk, I will do that tomorrow.
But running fine. Shut her down an let sit all afternoon but now will not start!
Hmmmmm!
#26
08-28-2022, 02:03 AM
Veteran Member
Might be time to invest in a good OBD tool that can log data. It will cost a bit but how much is your sanity worth? 😀
The Foxwell NT530 works well for me, not horrendously expensive and can do all of the special JLR functions short of programming modules. With something like that you can see what is being commanded (fuel pump duty cycle) vs what is actually happening (fuel pressure sensor) in real-ish time.
The Foxwell NT530 works well for me, not horrendously expensive and can do all of the special JLR functions short of programming modules. With something like that you can see what is being commanded (fuel pump duty cycle) vs what is actually happening (fuel pressure sensor) in real-ish time.
#27
08-28-2022, 08:57 AM
Veteran Member
This no start moment is a GOOD thing, in all reality.
I agree with CC. I don't remember whether you said you had a diagnostic tool or not, but if not, its time to get one. I don't think you can have one of these cars, doing the work yourself, without one. Mine is a $20 something dollar torque pro from Amazon. Basic, but does good things.
So - no start is - starter spins and spins the engine BUT the engine never fires up, right? Starter DOES engage!?
This is ALSO a good time to test for spark!!! Remove one of the easiest to access plugs, pull a coil, and if you're brave, use a finger, lol, or an old plug. If you can find a helper, grab em! If not, sometimes you can PARTIALLY pull the coil and you can hear the CRACKING of electrical spark.
Last edited by JayJagJay; 08-28-2022 at 09:01 AM.
#28
08-28-2022, 10:03 AM
Oh. What I was asking was,,, was the loose wire wire you mentioned in the earlier post one of the white wires on top of the fuel pressure regulator (FPR) in the boot on the RH side wall?
This no start moment is a GOOD thing, in all reality.
I agree with CC. I don't remember whether you said you had a diagnostic tool or not, but if not, its time to get one. I don't think you can have one of these cars, doing the work yourself, without one. Mine is a $20 something dollar torque pro from Amazon. Basic, but does good things.
So - no start is - starter spins and spins the engine BUT the engine never fires up, right? Starter DOES engage!?
This is ALSO a good time to test for spark!!! Remove one of the easiest to access plugs, pull a coil, and if you're brave, use a finger, lol, or an old plug. If you can find a helper, grab em! If not, sometimes you can PARTIALLY pull the coil and you can hear the CRACKING of electrical spark.
This no start moment is a GOOD thing, in all reality.
I agree with CC. I don't remember whether you said you had a diagnostic tool or not, but if not, its time to get one. I don't think you can have one of these cars, doing the work yourself, without one. Mine is a $20 something dollar torque pro from Amazon. Basic, but does good things.
So - no start is - starter spins and spins the engine BUT the engine never fires up, right? Starter DOES engage!?
This is ALSO a good time to test for spark!!! Remove one of the easiest to access plugs, pull a coil, and if you're brave, use a finger, lol, or an old plug. If you can find a helper, grab em! If not, sometimes you can PARTIALLY pull the coil and you can hear the CRACKING of electrical spark.
White wire was one at the connector on top of the fuel tank leading to the pump. It is just slightly loose while others are tight.
I do have a Icarsoft scanner as well as a iPhone type scanner. The Icarsoft is not connecting at the moment while the iPhone does work and continues to throw the P1000 code as did the one at Advance Auto. I am trying to upgrade the software with hopes that is the connect issue with the scanner.
The starter spins and spins well. It just does not start.
I will try your suggestion on the spark plug.
But whatever is is frustrating that it runs perfectly. Turn off the ignition, come back later and it won’t start! But I agree this is a good time for it to act up again for it is sitting in my carport and an opportunity to discover the cause.
Again thanks!
Bill
Last edited by Bill Jacobs; 08-28-2022 at 10:07 AM.
#29
08-28-2022, 12:09 PM
Veteran Member
Is there a relation or how long it sits when this happens?
There is a pressure relief in the fuel pump that is supposed to limit the highest pressure to about 70psi or so. If that isn’t working properly and the car has been run the engine heat can cause a very high pressure in the fuel rail to the point the injectors won’t open.
This would look like: shut it down for an hour and it won’t start, let it sit over night and it starts fine.
If you’ve got the shader valve on the fuel rail and an analog gauge you could confirm the actual pressure when the no start condition occurs.
Note: the pressure sensor shows a differential pressure against manifold pressure so actual gauge pressure will be manifold +55 (I.e. less than 55 at idle).
There is a pressure relief in the fuel pump that is supposed to limit the highest pressure to about 70psi or so. If that isn’t working properly and the car has been run the engine heat can cause a very high pressure in the fuel rail to the point the injectors won’t open.
This would look like: shut it down for an hour and it won’t start, let it sit over night and it starts fine.
If you’ve got the shader valve on the fuel rail and an analog gauge you could confirm the actual pressure when the no start condition occurs.
Note: the pressure sensor shows a differential pressure against manifold pressure so actual gauge pressure will be manifold +55 (I.e. less than 55 at idle).
#30
08-28-2022, 06:07 PM
Is there a relation or how long it sits when this happens?
There is a pressure relief in the fuel pump that is supposed to limit the highest pressure to about 70psi or so. If that isn’t working properly and the car has been run the engine heat can cause a very high pressure in the fuel rail to the point the injectors won’t open.
This would look like: shut it down for an hour and it won’t start, let it sit over night and it starts fine.
If you’ve got the shader valve on the fuel rail and an analog gauge you could confirm the actual pressure when the no start condition occurs.
Note: the pressure sensor shows a differential pressure against manifold pressure so actual gauge pressure will be manifold +55 (I.e. less than 55 at idle).
There is a pressure relief in the fuel pump that is supposed to limit the highest pressure to about 70psi or so. If that isn’t working properly and the car has been run the engine heat can cause a very high pressure in the fuel rail to the point the injectors won’t open.
This would look like: shut it down for an hour and it won’t start, let it sit over night and it starts fine.
If you’ve got the shader valve on the fuel rail and an analog gauge you could confirm the actual pressure when the no start condition occurs.
Note: the pressure sensor shows a differential pressure against manifold pressure so actual gauge pressure will be manifold +55 (I.e. less than 55 at idle).
To add to equation yesterday when i was driving it I had my iPhone DashCmd OBD2 connected. It was showing 55 psi then I noticed it jumping up to 65+psi and back to 55psi a few minutes later. It ran fine going home, parked and shut her off. Later in the day she would not start! And now 24 hrs later she cranks right up! The fuel pressure on the OBD2 just now shows 55 psi.
So if this is in fact the problem, how is it fixed? Would the high fuel pressure issue be a result of an error by the indie who just replaced the fuel pump two and a half weeks ago? That failed pump, by the way, turned out to be working but a plastic elbow at the pump snapped, so according to the Indy the pump was just pumping gas back into the tank. He showed me the pump and the broken plastic elbow.
Thanks,
Bill
Last edited by Bill Jacobs; 08-28-2022 at 06:10 PM.
#31
08-28-2022, 08:07 PM
Veteran Member
I'll add this and I don't know whether it would rule out this last theory or not. I just don't know, but,,,
I had a situation (2004 XKR) where the "popper" relief valve in my car was not functioning properly (not releasing pressure) and the fuel pressures were sky high, 60, 65, 70lbs +... This situation never caused a non start. Not once.
More than the problem with the "popper",,, my fuel pump was wired so that it ran full blast all the time. Fuel trims were high/rich, CEL constant (p093 code), funny running but never a non starter.
Then, in chasing the problem (one part of many issues related to fueling when I first got the car) I damaged one of the orings ON the popper on reassembly and as a result I couldn't build ANY pressure in the rail. Pressures were always low. Stopped driving, even starting it but it still was never a non starter.
Of course I eventually was able to solve my issues (long story) and if youre wondering why my car was so NUTTY,,, it had spent some time at the bottom of a lake...lol
Anyways,,, I say all of this for the simple reason that,,, getting to that fuel pump the old fashioned way of removing the tank is NO walk in the park and one aughta be sure that the reason for doing it is worth the work of it... There are easier ways to get to the fuel pump assembly in the tank - they are a little unorthodox, so I won't go there without being invited.
Considering all the issues I had with that popper, and it never caused a no start situation, well maybe that's not it??? But again, I don't KNOW that fuel injectors being locked up due to tooooo much pressure from above at the rail would completely lock them up that way. I just don't know.
If you are having wild fluctuations in fuel pressures and you recently had fuel pump work done,,, man, I dunno. This still seems like some kind of electrical issue to me.
I had a situation (2004 XKR) where the "popper" relief valve in my car was not functioning properly (not releasing pressure) and the fuel pressures were sky high, 60, 65, 70lbs +... This situation never caused a non start. Not once.
More than the problem with the "popper",,, my fuel pump was wired so that it ran full blast all the time. Fuel trims were high/rich, CEL constant (p093 code), funny running but never a non starter.
Then, in chasing the problem (one part of many issues related to fueling when I first got the car) I damaged one of the orings ON the popper on reassembly and as a result I couldn't build ANY pressure in the rail. Pressures were always low. Stopped driving, even starting it but it still was never a non starter.
Of course I eventually was able to solve my issues (long story) and if youre wondering why my car was so NUTTY,,, it had spent some time at the bottom of a lake...lol
Anyways,,, I say all of this for the simple reason that,,, getting to that fuel pump the old fashioned way of removing the tank is NO walk in the park and one aughta be sure that the reason for doing it is worth the work of it... There are easier ways to get to the fuel pump assembly in the tank - they are a little unorthodox, so I won't go there without being invited.
Considering all the issues I had with that popper, and it never caused a no start situation, well maybe that's not it??? But again, I don't KNOW that fuel injectors being locked up due to tooooo much pressure from above at the rail would completely lock them up that way. I just don't know.
If you are having wild fluctuations in fuel pressures and you recently had fuel pump work done,,, man, I dunno. This still seems like some kind of electrical issue to me.
Last edited by JayJagJay; 08-28-2022 at 08:19 PM.
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#32
08-29-2022, 12:23 AM
Veteran Member
To add to equation yesterday when i was driving it I had my iPhone DashCmd OBD2 connected. It was showing 55 psi then I noticed it jumping up to 65+psi and back to 55psi a few minutes later. It ran fine going home, parked and shut her off. Later in the day she would not start! And now 24 hrs later she cranks right up! The fuel pressure on the OBD2 just now shows 55 psi.
So if this is in fact the problem, how is it fixed? Would the high fuel pressure issue be a result of an error by the indie who just replaced the fuel pump two and a half weeks ago? That failed pump, by the way, turned out to be working but a plastic elbow at the pump snapped, so according to the Indy the pump was just pumping gas back into the tank. He showed me the pump and the broken plastic elbow.
Last edited by ccfulton; 08-29-2022 at 03:22 PM.
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#34
08-29-2022, 09:11 AM
Veteran Member
#36
09-10-2022, 06:08 PM
I am back! She has been running perfectly — until a few moments ago she decided not to start, thankfully in my garage. Getting ready to make a run to the store. I turn her on she turns over several times but no start — although she seemed to want to for a second. And repeatedly no start.
Pushing Schrader valve and “some”gas triples out but not under press like before. The OBD2 shows 1 psi while cranking! Try to crank again but engine just turns over and still no pressure showing on the OBD2. Add a little starting fluid to the carburetor throat and she cranks, runs a few second and dies. Try it again and same thing happens. Still no fuel pressure on the OBD2.
A new new fuel pump was installed several weeks ago and it ran perfectly for over a week only to suddenly suddenly quit, stranding me on the side of the road for a period before mysteriously starting after a short period.
Same thing happened the next day, and again few weeks later. Now I am back to square one!
Any thoughts?
Thanks
Bill
Pushing Schrader valve and “some”gas triples out but not under press like before. The OBD2 shows 1 psi while cranking! Try to crank again but engine just turns over and still no pressure showing on the OBD2. Add a little starting fluid to the carburetor throat and she cranks, runs a few second and dies. Try it again and same thing happens. Still no fuel pressure on the OBD2.
A new new fuel pump was installed several weeks ago and it ran perfectly for over a week only to suddenly suddenly quit, stranding me on the side of the road for a period before mysteriously starting after a short period.
Same thing happened the next day, and again few weeks later. Now I am back to square one!
Any thoughts?
Thanks
Bill
#37
09-10-2022, 08:38 PM
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#38
09-11-2022, 01:19 AM
Veteran Member
Pull the fuse and put a bulb, say 5w in its place,,no start no light ...fiddle with the wiring on top of the tank and if the bulb lights you have fiddled with the faulty bit. Replace bulb with fuse and it should start .There is wiring inside the tank and a double connector on the pump ?? or its got bad brushes ??
If your fiddle with the wiring does not put the lamp on change the pump.
If your fiddle with the wiring does not put the lamp on change the pump.
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#39
09-11-2022, 08:02 AM
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