Hello guys!

Been thinking about something.

A friend of mine, has a rolling road, including possibilities to tune about any EFI system around. Since I had the cylinder wash issue on sunday, I've contacted Jaguar, and they basically told me they didn't know of a working software fix. And that it was something you would have to live with.

My thought though was to go to my friend, and analyze the warm up map, to see wether we can lower the amount of fuel injected during this part of the map. I could arrange for others to get their ECM reprogrammed as well.

Anyone have detailed info on what sort of EFI system is on the car?

 

Have you read my post http://www.gusglikas.com/AutoRepairNoStart.htm The two TSB’s you are looking for are 303-35 & 303-52 and if the Jag service department is not aware of it you are going to the wrong place.

 

I will ask them again. They are supposed to be the main importer in Norway, so they should know. Will give them a call.

Cheers, Jarle

 

You can print them from my page if you wish.

 

Hmm.. Called them up, and they didn't seem very optimistic that those TSBs would help on this issue..

One tech guy, did however say this if you are uncertain of wether the engine has reached a good enough operating temp, you should rev it before shutdown. This would clear the engine a bit. Apparantly this is what they do when moving cars in and out of the workshop.

I'll check with my friend if he can work on these ECM's.

 

I am not sure about the issue; however, they know better than jaguar who addressed the cylinder wash themselves and posted two TSB’s to address it? Work with them and decide what the issue is and go in that direction. Not knowing all the facts keeps me from adding additional comments and what direction to go. What year is your car and could elaborate a little on the problem? I want to be sure I or we understand it.

 

This what the Norwegian Jaguar importer told me. The early V8 engines (mine is a 1998) are not happy about short trips where you are not able to get the car up to proper operating temperature. They told me that they've had several incidents like this, and that they have mostly solved the problems by giving the customers some info on how to get around the problem. Either by revving the car a bit before turning it off again after a short trip, or to let the temp gauge move a bit before shutting down.

I feel quite certain that if I do like they say, it will not probably do it again.

They also told me, that if it did happen again, just put the throttle to the floor and turn the starter for some time. Just like you and test said also. I am pretty sure they are talking about the cylinder wash issue.

Anyone know for sure, what changes those TSB's do?

What happened, was that I for a couple days had only run the car for very short trips. To the shop and back. Then I tried to start the car, and it was difficult to start and also sounded low on compression. Followed yours and tests recipy and then it worked. After that I've used it for 300 kilomters, and it has worked perfectly.

 

Yes, good advice from the dealer on clearing cylinder wash. Hold the pedal to the floor as the engine has an oiling design that will relubricate the cylinders when cranking without flooding them with oil.

There are some unconventional methods floating around the internet that involves removing the spark plugs and adding oil directly to the piston tops and this can have some very bad unintended consequences.

These are actually very old techniques the weekend mechanics used to use on straight sixe Chevys, when they had worn rings, to boost startup compression enough to get a bad engine started. This was before catalytic converters and before V8s which have their pistons on a 45 deg angle.

The oil added to a straight six would be minimal to create a temporary seal, yet when the engine started it would belch out the unburned oil in a cloud of blue smoke. on a V8, the amount of oil needed to do any good at all is significantly larger. Upon startup, the majority of this oil is going unburned and partially burned directly into the catalytic converters where is will reside for a long time under various adverse temperature conditions all detrimental to the health of the cats. And, the sensors possibly will suffer too from oil coating.

So, strongly advise to use the preferred technically correct method as the dealer prescribed.

 

I am not sure where you got your information from but mine is from research from people who know. Are you suggesting that this engine has an oiling system that will compensate when you hold the accelerator to the floor? Holding it to the floor cuts off the fuel the TB and adding does not creat problems. I think you need to read my information on Nikasil, Cylinder washing and Nikasil and Sulfur first this information came form about 9 months of investigation to find the truth about Nikasil. By the way I no longer have a nikasil eng and have nothing to gain but feel that the people need to know so they can deal with it properly!!!

 

Cylinder washing is caused by over fueling. This over fueling is caused by Programming the ECM and Jaguar addressed this and Poor fuel presentation to the cylinder. Jaguar addressed the ECM in two TSB that I have copies of on my page for your pleasure. The poor fuel presentation is often from dirty injectors or a dirty TB. In the early stages of the Nikasil life with Jaguar they addressed the problem by suggesting using a hi-octane fuel with little reason why. This is an effort to keep the injectors clean. Nikasil lined cylinders were not a bad thing! The only problem is that it and the sulfur in the fuel THEN and short trips (where the engine does not reach operating temperatures) creates a chemical reaction in the cylinder that reduces the quality of the Nikasil. This is not a problem today. Now you need to understand that Nikasil is slicker than the banana peel on the sidewalk and a lot less resistant than a steel lined cylinder wall.

No starting can be caused by many things; however, I am only addressing cylinder washing. The improper presentation of fuel to the cylinder causes washing of the cylinder walls resulting in the oil to be reduced or eliminated around the cylinders and the compression rings on the piston resulting in no compression and no start. Any attempt to start the car will fail if the engine lacks in the proper presentation of fuel, air, spark and compression.

The suggestion of adding oil is an old recipe to create compression and to reduce the excessive wear to the cylinder walls or the piston rings. Using excessive oil can cause other problems but using it moderately does assist in more than just getting the car started. To date I have not seen or heard of other related problems.

I do need to add that when I experienced the washed cylinders (3 times) no one could explain the cause or a fix other than it being Nikasil and my efforts to start killed two batteries and one starter on my car. I do wish to apologize for my last post that was not anger it was passion.

My additional information on this problem is located on FAQ on this forum and on my page.

http://www.gusglikas.com/AutoRepairNoStart.htm
http://www.gusglikas.com/AutoRepairNikasilSulfur.htm
http://www.gusglikas.com/AutoRepairNikasil.htm

 

Gus,

Very good information.

The problem with adding oil in the cylinders to temporarily restore compression is that you're fighting gravity on a V8 with cylinders sitting at a 45 deg angle. You cannot get enough oil in the cylinders to have a very strong impact on compression. If you do get enough oil in to have any impact, this large volume of oil has to go somewhere. Before the first two revolutions, the majority of this oil will push out directly past the exhaust valves. It's not going to burn, at least not until it sits in the cats as they heat up. This oil will cook and cook, eventually become encrusted in the cats.

Try a little experiment by holding a drinking glass at a 45 deg angle, then add a teaspoon of water. See how much circumference is actually covered. Kep adding teaspoons until even half the circumference is in contact with oil.

This is the problem. I always look to fully inform the DIYer, and I want to believe good techs repairing customer cars for a living don't engage in this practice. DIYers need to know what happens when some small dose of oil does nothing to resotore compression, so they remove the plugs again and add more....and more. I've always believed responsible tech research and subsequent advice looks at the impact of all actions, especially that advice which is unorthodox. There is no upside to this technique, but a lot of potential downside, besides a lot of work getting plugs in and out.

All the Best,

 

Now imagine that this glass has a piston with “O” rings set back from the head of the piston. Put the water in at a 45 and push the piston up. A portion of the water will reach about 2/3 to almost all of the “O” ring. I am not advocating putting a large amount of oil in I am suggesting that you will have and past posts have suggested better success in starting the car. In this case gravity does not prevail. As I tell my work force we must agree to disagree!

 

Hey Gus,

Yes, we disagree. Remember, oil is not water, the piston has very little momentum on crank, every piston is at a different place in the 4 cycles, most of any oil will be pushed immediately out the exhaust by two of the pistons, two will be at different stages of completing the exhaust stroke, two only on the intake stroke, those two pistons out of 8 have the best chance there might be some oil movement past the very lowest valley in the cylinder, but not much. Given the washout condition that cause the problem in the first place, this engine is going to crank and crank before it fires, and any amount of oil in the cylinders will not make starting any faster.

All in all, not a very good procedure, but I too respect your position, especially since you can do whatever they please to your own car. I have to be more careful with cars I work on that are not my own.

Best,

 

I guess in using water was a poor analogy but when I think of a glass I think of water like you did in your previous statement. As for the oil/water the tracking capabilities on oil is greater than water meaning it would work its way around the compression rings on the piston. Let’s not lose focus the amount of oil a spoonful +/- a few drops is about all you need. No one should add more than that. Yes you are correct that not all pistons are in the same place at the same time but the oil works its way around with success. Again we are not talking about putting a qt of oil in each cylinder.

We are entitled to an opinion and mine is why continue cranking a dry piston and rings on a dry cylinder wall reducing the life of the engine when you can shorten the duration of the start by adding oil and save the piston, rings and cylinder walls and it works. Continued cranking dry (no oil) can and will cost you batteries and starters and both are not cheap.

 

Gus,

Sorry I cannot convince you, but I understand and appreciate you sticking to your position.

The viscosity of oil if far greater than water. If you understand the measurement of kinematic viscosity (if my school chemistry class doesn't fail me) where no force is involved, there is no force that can occur that you describe as "tracking capabilities". I'm assuming you meant that to mean the oil can somehow work against gravity and work its way up, around the circumference of the cylinder. I believe there is some "wicking" capabilities of liquids given certain media, but I have no idea how to calculate that nor do I understand the material properties, except, I know paper towels would work, and I know there must be a significant time element involved that would have to be a calculation using kinematic viscosity.

With this cylinder wash condition on an AJ26 (most of the problems occurred on AJ26s), if you understand the material composition of Nikasil, it is an extremely hard and dense material. The piston rings are sprung and given a cold engine where metal tolerances are contracted (which exacerbates the compression loss), there really is not much wear occurring. I know this can be argued back and forth in theory.

On replacing parts, it is interesting how different people hold different parts as sacred. Whil you want to protect starters and batteries, I am far more interested in saving catalytic converters and sensors. If you've ever had to buy and replace a cat on an AJV8, then you know how I feel. I'll pay for and rpelace a starter any day.

Oil being pushed into the cats isn't going to give a cat a fatal heart attack, but can start a death spiral. With contamination of fuel and or oil in the cat, operating temps begin to rise as the cat overworks to clean up the material. The aluminum oxide honeycomb will begin to degrade. Also, the platinum and palladium coating on the honeycomb starts to melt and sink into the ceramic substrate reducing its ability to scrub the exhaust. This is the death spiral and eventually causes the converter to fail. Then look for a P0420 or P0430...or both.

 

Steve,
You were the one that brought up the water not me and I do understand what you are saying. I am not suggesting that oil defies gravity I am saying with the properties of oil and the movement of the piston and the relationship of the piston ring oil will cover about 2/3 of the piston ring.

As for the wear of the rings on Nikasil you cannot convince me that unnecessary ware is not taking place. The rings are not made of Nikasil.

As for parts replacement I am unable to argue that point with you because I do not know how man if any parts you suggest failing because of adding oil to the cylinders. However, I can tell you that several batteries were replaced and I know of two starters.

We can go on and on about this. You are not going to convince me to change my position and I know that you will not. So let’s end this on a peaceful note. Thanks for your input we put a lot out there for others to read and make whatever decision they want.

 

Good points Gus. I agree. Let's end it.