Legal rights against UK seller
#21
05-15-2012, 10:15 AM
Veteran Member
As written by Roadhogg
On this forum there are no stupid questions, I know I've given a few stupid answers Good luck on getting it up to par.
I will keep people posted Mikey, i don't think i'll be able to avoid it considering i'm bound to be asking stupid questions to resolve issues, or uncertanties about how to fix it.
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Roadhogg (05-16-2012)
#22
05-15-2012, 12:41 PM
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#23
05-15-2012, 04:05 PM
Senior Member
The REAL lesson is: join this forum (and any others that might have different experiences) long BEFORE seriously looking to find a decent XK8 or XKR....especially in the YM group we are buying.
I probably would not have bit for $8850 on my '97 if I had asked the right questions and had the right info (although, the recently replaced transmission and way overstated condition might have still caught me).
I probably would not have bit for $8850 on my '97 if I had asked the right questions and had the right info (although, the recently replaced transmission and way overstated condition might have still caught me).
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Roadhogg (05-16-2012)
#24
05-15-2012, 05:09 PM
Member
Some of you may know that the XK8 i bought off ebay late february has a number of problems.
My problem is that, as the scale of the deception, and the level of calculation involved in the sale of this car becomes apparent, i'm finding that i am becoming less able to give the seller the benefit of any doubt regarding it's condition.
I must admit i'm tempted to take legal action if i can, although if it's likely to cost me as much, if not more than, i can expect to recover, then perhaps i should just accept what's happened and get on with trying to make the best of it.
The car was registered Sept 2000, was advertised as having covered 69,000 miles, and i bought it on 24th February this year, so i've had it coming up to 12 weeks next Friday. I paid £3,840 for it.
In view of the fact the car has no service history whatsoever, and also no DVLA MOT history whatsoever, i think it will be a miracle if the mileage has not been seriously wound back from somewhere in excess of 130,000, although under the circumstances, i may never be able to prove it.
The car has covered 555 miles under my ownership, 250 of which was getting it home the day i bought it.
I've spent about £500 on it so far, and i estimate that to get it sorted properly will cost about another £1,200 to £1,500, and that's without getting the drivers door and o/s rear wing re-sprayed, plus some rust patches sorted, to get the bodywork to the standard of "stunning" it was described as being in by the seller.
Bit by bit the penny in my head has been dropping with this car, as i gradually figure out exactly what's taken place and why.
The seller admitted to previously owning " a few of these" (XK8's), and i don't think there's any possibility he could have been oblivious to the faults on this car.
The car had a fresh MOT 28th January, and had apparently covered only 19 miles from then till the day i bought it.
As a guide, this is what's wrong with it:
Rust in and under footwells on both sides
Windscreen washer motor dead ... (since replaced)
Excess play in o/s/f inner track rod
o/s/f upper wishbone bush collapsed .... advised track rod end balljoint may also be defective
o/s/f tyre illegal- inner tread worn away ...............may not have been when i bought it, but was by the time i had it inspected 3 weeks and 300 miles later.
Each of the above are all MOT failures.
Other problems:
N/s/r tyre down to 3mm ....... suggests misalignment or wrong camber at rear.
Auxillary belt and idler required
Thermostat housing leaking
Gearbox return hose leaking
Cam cover gasket and front cover seals leaking
No instrument lights ........ (since fixed)
Possible steering rack defective ......not sure yet
Rear brake pads down to backing
Front discs warped ......( fitted new discs and pads)
L/h/f ABS harness not working
ABS and ASC not working .......could be just harness, and/or ABS module
ABS and check engine lights not working, plus a few others.
Climate control illumination bulb not working
Neither remote control working ..... tried to buy a new one from the Indy that inspected the car, but the car refused to accept the programming.
Driver's door doesn't close flush, probably due to misalignment from repaired and resprayed front wing or door, hence the overspray on the door. Won't T-cut out, needs respraying, as does the o/s rear wing.
Wrong battery in car, 45/420 ..... (since replaced with 100/830 Varta).
I've probably missed a few, but you get the idea.
It took 5 weeks to get the second set of keys, and i'm beginning to think he kept them until the end of what may be a 28 day grace period, in case he had to recover the car (steal it back and dispose of it), so that the car could not be presented as evidence in any action.
It took over 9 weeks to get the log book, and i'm thinking that this may be because he didn't want me to contact the previous owner, in case i discovered the true mileage, so just didn't send off the log book till after the 28 days.
Can anyone tell me if i would have any legal recourse at this point?
My problem is that, as the scale of the deception, and the level of calculation involved in the sale of this car becomes apparent, i'm finding that i am becoming less able to give the seller the benefit of any doubt regarding it's condition.
I must admit i'm tempted to take legal action if i can, although if it's likely to cost me as much, if not more than, i can expect to recover, then perhaps i should just accept what's happened and get on with trying to make the best of it.
The car was registered Sept 2000, was advertised as having covered 69,000 miles, and i bought it on 24th February this year, so i've had it coming up to 12 weeks next Friday. I paid £3,840 for it.
In view of the fact the car has no service history whatsoever, and also no DVLA MOT history whatsoever, i think it will be a miracle if the mileage has not been seriously wound back from somewhere in excess of 130,000, although under the circumstances, i may never be able to prove it.
The car has covered 555 miles under my ownership, 250 of which was getting it home the day i bought it.
I've spent about £500 on it so far, and i estimate that to get it sorted properly will cost about another £1,200 to £1,500, and that's without getting the drivers door and o/s rear wing re-sprayed, plus some rust patches sorted, to get the bodywork to the standard of "stunning" it was described as being in by the seller.
Bit by bit the penny in my head has been dropping with this car, as i gradually figure out exactly what's taken place and why.
The seller admitted to previously owning " a few of these" (XK8's), and i don't think there's any possibility he could have been oblivious to the faults on this car.
The car had a fresh MOT 28th January, and had apparently covered only 19 miles from then till the day i bought it.
As a guide, this is what's wrong with it:
Rust in and under footwells on both sides
Windscreen washer motor dead ... (since replaced)
Excess play in o/s/f inner track rod
o/s/f upper wishbone bush collapsed .... advised track rod end balljoint may also be defective
o/s/f tyre illegal- inner tread worn away ...............may not have been when i bought it, but was by the time i had it inspected 3 weeks and 300 miles later.
Each of the above are all MOT failures.
Other problems:
N/s/r tyre down to 3mm ....... suggests misalignment or wrong camber at rear.
Auxillary belt and idler required
Thermostat housing leaking
Gearbox return hose leaking
Cam cover gasket and front cover seals leaking
No instrument lights ........ (since fixed)
Possible steering rack defective ......not sure yet
Rear brake pads down to backing
Front discs warped ......( fitted new discs and pads)
L/h/f ABS harness not working
ABS and ASC not working .......could be just harness, and/or ABS module
ABS and check engine lights not working, plus a few others.
Climate control illumination bulb not working
Neither remote control working ..... tried to buy a new one from the Indy that inspected the car, but the car refused to accept the programming.
Driver's door doesn't close flush, probably due to misalignment from repaired and resprayed front wing or door, hence the overspray on the door. Won't T-cut out, needs respraying, as does the o/s rear wing.
Wrong battery in car, 45/420 ..... (since replaced with 100/830 Varta).
I've probably missed a few, but you get the idea.
It took 5 weeks to get the second set of keys, and i'm beginning to think he kept them until the end of what may be a 28 day grace period, in case he had to recover the car (steal it back and dispose of it), so that the car could not be presented as evidence in any action.
It took over 9 weeks to get the log book, and i'm thinking that this may be because he didn't want me to contact the previous owner, in case i discovered the true mileage, so just didn't send off the log book till after the 28 days.
Can anyone tell me if i would have any legal recourse at this point?
#25
05-15-2012, 05:30 PM
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#26
05-16-2012, 01:31 AM
In answer to landmannnn's question, " not quite, but i might as well have done" 
Why am i smiling?
RCSign, on the subject of stupid answers i've been there and done that too.
Two which immediately come to mind were answers to guidance from GGG, one of which was the answer to his advice to use either blue/green, or yellow antifreeze on replacing the thermostat housing.
In my ignorance i assumed i had a choice, but having since read through the antifreeze post in the maintenance links, i now realize the wrong choice could result in corrosion of the block or the new, as yet unfitted aluminum thermo housing, or if not that, sludge in the cooling system that could result in equally serious damage to the engine.
The second one was in answer to my gearbox oil leak, where GGG suggested it might be the oil cooler pipe O rings, to which i said, some thing like " i figure i'll just renew the oil cooler pipes complete".
I've since installed JTIS, and now understand how much extra expense and work it would involve compared to just replacing the O rings.
He must have thought i was a nut job on both occasions ( and probably still does ).
Who could blame him
I've no doubt that as i learn, sometimes after the event instead of before, i will release more little gems like those, to my long lasting embarrassment.
oldjaglover, i never knew that this, or any forum, for these cars existed before i bought the car and found out there was no Haynes manual for them lol.
So as i said earlier:
I'm just glad that i've bumped in to such a great bunch of guys, willing to share such extensive knowledge to help me get my beautiful looking heap of junk on the road lol.
And i hope the car didn't hear me say that
Edit:
To ageingrockstar regarding the garage that did the MOT, i'm not going to chase them.
When i went to see this car at the garage, the mechanics didn't look happy, i think i mentioned it on a previous thread.
At the time i figured it might be due to the seller haggling over money or something with the garage, and in that event it was none of my business.
I pondered their reaction for some days afterwards.
I now think it's more likely that they issued an MOT for it without looking at it, on the sellers word as a known dealer and regular customer, that the car was good.
His mistake was to book the car in for a handbrake cable, at which point they've put it up on the ramps and had a look underneath.
They may have noticed they've issued an MOT to a car that had MOT failure issues, and if that's the case, their reaction makes sense.
They too, realised after the event that they'd been lied to.
I think if they were men with no conscience, they wouldn't have behaved the way they did.
If i chased them i'd be chasing the wrong people. Or at least that's what i think now.
Why am i smiling?
RCSign, on the subject of stupid answers i've been there and done that too.
Two which immediately come to mind were answers to guidance from GGG, one of which was the answer to his advice to use either blue/green, or yellow antifreeze on replacing the thermostat housing.
In my ignorance i assumed i had a choice, but having since read through the antifreeze post in the maintenance links, i now realize the wrong choice could result in corrosion of the block or the new, as yet unfitted aluminum thermo housing, or if not that, sludge in the cooling system that could result in equally serious damage to the engine.
The second one was in answer to my gearbox oil leak, where GGG suggested it might be the oil cooler pipe O rings, to which i said, some thing like " i figure i'll just renew the oil cooler pipes complete".
I've since installed JTIS, and now understand how much extra expense and work it would involve compared to just replacing the O rings.
He must have thought i was a nut job on both occasions ( and probably still does ).
Who could blame him
I've no doubt that as i learn, sometimes after the event instead of before, i will release more little gems like those, to my long lasting embarrassment.
oldjaglover, i never knew that this, or any forum, for these cars existed before i bought the car and found out there was no Haynes manual for them lol.
So as i said earlier:
Hindsight and knowledge are wonderful things aren't they? 
And i hope the car didn't hear me say that
Edit:
To ageingrockstar regarding the garage that did the MOT, i'm not going to chase them.
When i went to see this car at the garage, the mechanics didn't look happy, i think i mentioned it on a previous thread.
At the time i figured it might be due to the seller haggling over money or something with the garage, and in that event it was none of my business.
I pondered their reaction for some days afterwards.
I now think it's more likely that they issued an MOT for it without looking at it, on the sellers word as a known dealer and regular customer, that the car was good.
His mistake was to book the car in for a handbrake cable, at which point they've put it up on the ramps and had a look underneath.
They may have noticed they've issued an MOT to a car that had MOT failure issues, and if that's the case, their reaction makes sense.
They too, realised after the event that they'd been lied to.
I think if they were men with no conscience, they wouldn't have behaved the way they did.
If i chased them i'd be chasing the wrong people. Or at least that's what i think now.
Last edited by Roadhogg; 05-16-2012 at 02:37 AM.
#27
05-16-2012, 02:50 AM
Veteran Member
Hang on! I'm being polite to Americans - Ah no I forgot there are quite a few European members as well....
Seriously though, as others have said, you've got money in your pocket by buying cheaply. Look on the bright side - for example you've got the opportunity to replace ALL the suspension bushes now and have done with it. Take your time and enjoy pulling the old girl to bits. There's no rush.
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Lanny (12-25-2012)
#28
05-16-2012, 04:46 AM
Many of us have fallen for a Jaguar's seductive curves and gleaming paintwork only to find some horror on getting it back home.
The provenance of the vehicle is naturally a cause for concern and the ill feeling from being duped by a dishonest seller cannot be changed. However, the same mechanical issues would probably arise on any XK8 of similar age. The only difference being they don't usually all happen together!
There's nothing listed that hasn't been seen before and can't be fixed with the collective knowledge of members from around the World and a few ££'s.
Graham
#29
05-16-2012, 09:23 PM
Thank you for your support gentlemen.
Looking at this car in the flesh for the first time was a bit like looking at a beautiful woman, whose eyes contain the ability to drill through to the back of your head.
I knew i wanted it.
My lack of due diligence and mechanical knowledge set me up for this.
In my naievety i figured it was cheap due to the lack of any service history.
But i've had my time on my soap box, and it's time to stop whingeing and just sort it out as best i can.
The purchase knowledge i've gained, and the mechanical knowledge i'm about to gain, can only stand me in good stead should i decide to buy another in the future. (Possibly an XKR, in years to come).
This has become my training vehicle.
And it's time to start training.
Actually i didn't intend, when i started this thread, to start griping about it. I just wanted to see if i had any legal options, and i don't.
It just evolved in to a griping session, or feels that way.
My apologies to all, and thank you all for putting up with me.
Looking at this car in the flesh for the first time was a bit like looking at a beautiful woman, whose eyes contain the ability to drill through to the back of your head.
I knew i wanted it.
My lack of due diligence and mechanical knowledge set me up for this.
In my naievety i figured it was cheap due to the lack of any service history.
But i've had my time on my soap box, and it's time to stop whingeing and just sort it out as best i can.
The purchase knowledge i've gained, and the mechanical knowledge i'm about to gain, can only stand me in good stead should i decide to buy another in the future. (Possibly an XKR, in years to come).
This has become my training vehicle.
And it's time to start training.
Actually i didn't intend, when i started this thread, to start griping about it. I just wanted to see if i had any legal options, and i don't.
It just evolved in to a griping session, or feels that way.
My apologies to all, and thank you all for putting up with me.
#30
05-16-2012, 10:22 PM
Veteran Member
#31
05-17-2012, 04:05 AM
Graham
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franksm (12-24-2012)
#32
05-17-2012, 06:03 PM
Senior Member
#33
05-18-2012, 03:16 AM
#34
12-22-2012, 06:12 PM
Some of you may know that the XK8 i bought off ebay late february has a number of problems.
My problem is that, as the scale of the deception, and the level of calculation involved in the sale of this car becomes apparent, i'm finding that i am becoming less able to give the seller the benefit of any doubt regarding it's condition.
I must admit i'm tempted to take legal action if i can, although if it's likely to cost me as much, if not more than, i can expect to recover, then perhaps i should just accept what's happened and get on with trying to make the best of it.
The car was registered Sept 2000, was advertised as having covered 69,000 miles, and i bought it on 24th February this year, so i've had it coming up to 12 weeks next Friday. I paid £3,840 for it.
In view of the fact the car has no service history whatsoever, and also no DVLA MOT history whatsoever, i think it will be a miracle if the mileage has not been seriously wound back from somewhere in excess of 130,000, although under the circumstances, i may never be able to prove it.
The car has covered 555 miles under my ownership, 250 of which was getting it home the day i bought it.
I've spent about £500 on it so far, and i estimate that to get it sorted properly will cost about another £1,200 to £1,500, and that's without getting the drivers door and o/s rear wing re-sprayed, plus some rust patches sorted, to get the bodywork to the standard of "stunning" it was described as being in by the seller.
Bit by bit the penny in my head has been dropping with this car, as i gradually figure out exactly what's taken place and why.
The seller admitted to previously owning " a few of these" (XK8's), and i don't think there's any possibility he could have been oblivious to the faults on this car.
The car had a fresh MOT 28th January, and had apparently covered only 19 miles from then till the day i bought it.
As a guide, this is what's wrong with it:
Rust in and under footwells on both sides
Windscreen washer motor dead ... (since replaced)
Excess play in o/s/f inner track rod
o/s/f upper wishbone bush collapsed .... advised track rod end balljoint may also be defective
o/s/f tyre illegal- inner tread worn away ...............may not have been when i bought it, but was by the time i had it inspected 3 weeks and 300 miles later.
Each of the above are all MOT failures.
Other problems:
N/s/r tyre down to 3mm ....... suggests misalignment or wrong camber at rear.
Auxillary belt and idler required
Thermostat housing leaking
Gearbox return hose leaking
Cam cover gasket and front cover seals leaking
No instrument lights ........ (since fixed)
Possible steering rack defective ......not sure yet
Rear brake pads down to backing
Front discs warped ......( fitted new discs and pads)
L/h/f ABS harness not working
ABS and ASC not working .......could be just harness, and/or ABS module
ABS and check engine lights not working, plus a few others.
Climate control illumination bulb not working
Neither remote control working ..... tried to buy a new one from the Indy that inspected the car, but the car refused to accept the programming.
Driver's door doesn't close flush, probably due to misalignment from repaired and resprayed front wing or door, hence the overspray on the door. Won't T-cut out, needs respraying, as does the o/s rear wing.
Wrong battery in car, 45/420 ..... (since replaced with 100/830 Varta).
I've probably missed a few, but you get the idea.
It took 5 weeks to get the second set of keys, and i'm beginning to think he kept them until the end of what may be a 28 day grace period, in case he had to recover the car (steal it back and dispose of it), so that the car could not be presented as evidence in any action.
It took over 9 weeks to get the log book, and i'm thinking that this may be because he didn't want me to contact the previous owner, in case i discovered the true mileage, so just didn't send off the log book till after the 28 days.
Can anyone tell me if i would have any legal recourse at this point?
My problem is that, as the scale of the deception, and the level of calculation involved in the sale of this car becomes apparent, i'm finding that i am becoming less able to give the seller the benefit of any doubt regarding it's condition.
I must admit i'm tempted to take legal action if i can, although if it's likely to cost me as much, if not more than, i can expect to recover, then perhaps i should just accept what's happened and get on with trying to make the best of it.
The car was registered Sept 2000, was advertised as having covered 69,000 miles, and i bought it on 24th February this year, so i've had it coming up to 12 weeks next Friday. I paid £3,840 for it.
In view of the fact the car has no service history whatsoever, and also no DVLA MOT history whatsoever, i think it will be a miracle if the mileage has not been seriously wound back from somewhere in excess of 130,000, although under the circumstances, i may never be able to prove it.
The car has covered 555 miles under my ownership, 250 of which was getting it home the day i bought it.
I've spent about £500 on it so far, and i estimate that to get it sorted properly will cost about another £1,200 to £1,500, and that's without getting the drivers door and o/s rear wing re-sprayed, plus some rust patches sorted, to get the bodywork to the standard of "stunning" it was described as being in by the seller.
Bit by bit the penny in my head has been dropping with this car, as i gradually figure out exactly what's taken place and why.
The seller admitted to previously owning " a few of these" (XK8's), and i don't think there's any possibility he could have been oblivious to the faults on this car.
The car had a fresh MOT 28th January, and had apparently covered only 19 miles from then till the day i bought it.
As a guide, this is what's wrong with it:
Rust in and under footwells on both sides
Windscreen washer motor dead ... (since replaced)
Excess play in o/s/f inner track rod
o/s/f upper wishbone bush collapsed .... advised track rod end balljoint may also be defective
o/s/f tyre illegal- inner tread worn away ...............may not have been when i bought it, but was by the time i had it inspected 3 weeks and 300 miles later.
Each of the above are all MOT failures.
Other problems:
N/s/r tyre down to 3mm ....... suggests misalignment or wrong camber at rear.
Auxillary belt and idler required
Thermostat housing leaking
Gearbox return hose leaking
Cam cover gasket and front cover seals leaking
No instrument lights ........ (since fixed)
Possible steering rack defective ......not sure yet
Rear brake pads down to backing
Front discs warped ......( fitted new discs and pads)
L/h/f ABS harness not working
ABS and ASC not working .......could be just harness, and/or ABS module
ABS and check engine lights not working, plus a few others.
Climate control illumination bulb not working
Neither remote control working ..... tried to buy a new one from the Indy that inspected the car, but the car refused to accept the programming.
Driver's door doesn't close flush, probably due to misalignment from repaired and resprayed front wing or door, hence the overspray on the door. Won't T-cut out, needs respraying, as does the o/s rear wing.
Wrong battery in car, 45/420 ..... (since replaced with 100/830 Varta).
I've probably missed a few, but you get the idea.
It took 5 weeks to get the second set of keys, and i'm beginning to think he kept them until the end of what may be a 28 day grace period, in case he had to recover the car (steal it back and dispose of it), so that the car could not be presented as evidence in any action.
It took over 9 weeks to get the log book, and i'm thinking that this may be because he didn't want me to contact the previous owner, in case i discovered the true mileage, so just didn't send off the log book till after the 28 days.
Can anyone tell me if i would have any legal recourse at this point?
on the bright side: look at how much fun you will have turning the car to a really good condition, then it will be your baby and you'll know every idiosyncrasy of your jag. ..
which is half the fun of owning a jag.
i am not sure about the price of a 2000 xk in London, but reading the other reply sounds like you saved quite a bit, so now enjoy the rebuild
#35
12-23-2012, 12:09 PM
At the moment it still has most of the problems it had when this thread was started (back in May 2012), but i'm slowly trying to get it to the condition it was supposed to be in when i bought it.
It became a choice between offloading it at a substantial loss , probably £2,000 or less with no history and so many faults, or spending even more money on it than i would lose by selling it, knowing i'd never recoup it.
I've chosen the latter, because it may save it from a premature death, and the mechanical knowledge i gain (and the tools i acquire along the way), were badly lacking and may be of benefit in future.
It's become my apprenticeship project.
I just hope i can raise the funds to see it through, and i should have a better idea of that by March 2013.
It became a choice between offloading it at a substantial loss , probably £2,000 or less with no history and so many faults, or spending even more money on it than i would lose by selling it, knowing i'd never recoup it.
I've chosen the latter, because it may save it from a premature death, and the mechanical knowledge i gain (and the tools i acquire along the way), were badly lacking and may be of benefit in future.
It's become my apprenticeship project.
I just hope i can raise the funds to see it through, and i should have a better idea of that by March 2013.
Last edited by Roadhogg; 12-23-2012 at 12:13 PM.
#36
12-23-2012, 03:29 PM
Veteran Member
#37
12-24-2012, 10:05 AM
I may have been able to recover some of it if i'd paid him by PayPal, but he said he wanted cash if possible to save on the commission charges.
It was my first purchase through ebay, (or one of the first), for many years, and previously i had only bought small items.
I know better now obviously, but i didn't then.
I guess i was the perfect customer, that knew next to nothing about ebay, XK8's or mechanics in general.
It was my first purchase through ebay, (or one of the first), for many years, and previously i had only bought small items.
I know better now obviously, but i didn't then.
I guess i was the perfect customer, that knew next to nothing about ebay, XK8's or mechanics in general.
#39
12-25-2012, 02:31 AM
#40
12-25-2012, 04:15 AM
Veteran member
I missed this thread first time round. Too bad 
As has been said, though, at least you will have fun (not sure if that's the appropriate word...) getting her up to scratch. It is annoying being fleeced like that but at least it was only a relatively small amount of money.
Any chance of your posting some pictures, I would like to see the car Did you keep the original photos used in the eBay ad?
As has been said, though, at least you will have fun (not sure if that's the appropriate word...) getting her up to scratch. It is annoying being fleeced like that but at least it was only a relatively small amount of money.
Any chance of your posting some pictures, I would like to see the car
Did you keep the original photos used in the eBay ad?
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PaulJ (12-25-2012)