I might be in left field here, but something has been bugging me since you first diagnosed the problem with the 'fuel rail pulse damper' and had them repaired with new seals.

I do not see the fuel rail pulse damper listed as a replaceable part...is this integral with the fuel rail? You said there were to two of them, one for each bank. Is is possible there was a failure of one of these or one was damaged during the repair? Should you consider replacing the fuel rail?

 

I give up! My steadfast attempt to master this car is over....

My car has been inoperable since July 9th! Over eleven weeks!!! I have spent easily over 50 hours (probably more like 80-100 hours) in futile attempts to exorcise this coventry-born devil.

I have not employed a mechanic in 34 years - because in the past, I could "do it myself" or at least with the help of a few buddy's - like-minded friends or with help from the kind souls I have met through the "interwebs." Well, I'm done.... That has to change- Last week, I went to a Kansas City Jaguar club meeting and was able to get the names of three or four recommended local shops. I will be calling around to find one to take my sick and afflicted XKR to.

I want to offer my sincere thanks to the few that have pushed their own limits of deduction to help solve an illusive problem that continues to plague my 2003 XKR.

Steveinfrance, avos, plums, GGG, WhiteXKR, oldmots, chopr and bad94flstn: You guys are the best and I cannot thank you enough for your own perserverence.

Let me explain the last few things I have done since you may have last tuned in.

WhiteXKR: The original problem was a fuel leak from one of the two pulsation dampers on the fuel rail. I had that repaired, pressure checked and the injectors professionally cleaned by "Injector RX" out of Houston, TX. After the repair I know it was good to go becuae it didn't leak any more and just in case, because of the subsequent problems, I pulled the rail and all the injectors and checked them myself... All was well. But thanks for the idea.

AVOS: I don't have the IDS program (or the computer to run it) I only have a MAC computer and NOTHING from anybody, seriously service oriented runs on a damn MAC. I plan on buying a used laptop or tower PC for my shop - so that, in the future, this problem is eliminated - Thanks to Graham for producing some .pdf files early on in my work of getting the supercharger removed .

Plums: You have been an endless source of ideas, and I thank you! BTW, The "mega-point harness was indeed the harness to the ECU. I was backpinning and chasing all wires to this harness. I did find the other "mega-point harness" directly behind the throttle body. I pulled that connector apart and used DeoxIT R-5 by Caig on all the connections before I reassembled it.
Man, I have checked continuity and "wiggle tested" EVERY single wire from ALL the connections I could imagine that would affect Bank 2 and many, many that I know would affect global operations of the engine - My back hurts just thinking about the dozens of hours I have spent pouring over the wiring diagrams and checking friggin wires!

I did, however, find an intermittent open circuit at the TPS connector by wiggle testing the wire and had to buy another 4 wire TPS connector and solder a replacement into position - I did that yesterday. Boy are those 4 pin connectors rare! I had to find one from a salvaged 1996 Ford Probe - for goodness sake!!! Yuck.

Even though the ECU is supported in a fashion that it is completely isolated from chassis ground, I took your advice and securely grounded the case to the shock tower - that had no effect.

Steveinfrance and all: I allowed myself to succumb to the thought that it COULD be the upstream O2 sensor on Bank2 (even though my heart and testing was telling be that the original was good.) I found the exact replacement Denso sensor for 120 bucks on Ebay, so I went for it. I installed it. Ultimately, It made no difference - but it does appear to react faster. Also a good old fashioned compression test on all eight cylinders returned that all were within 10psi of each other and no burnt valves.

So today... I got her all put back together and Lo and Behold, she fired right up and went right into a smoooooth idle. After fully warming up and constant monitoring of all the sensors with my realtime Actron all was - no kidden, GOOD! I tentatively put the computer back into its plastic well and buttoned the car up for a test drive.

All WAS good.... For about 15 minutes of driving... I thought I had solved the problem! She was running as before - strong and fantastic. But alas, suddenly the mis-firing on bank 2 returned with a vengeance. Restricted performance was, as usual, back upon me!!!!!! It threw the usual codes P0300, 302,304,306,308 and 1316. Bank 2 was giving me HELL again!!!! I got it home and let it cool down to 100 degrees and started it again... Buh Buh Buh Buh Miss-fire Mis-fire Mis-fire.... -25.8 STFT on bank2 and the new 02 sensor reading .98 volts at idle. Super rich running AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's over! I'm DONE!! I've lost all patience and face here! This is beyond me and now I'm going to have to work very closely with a diagnostician that doesn't know me, my abilities and my due-diligence, to convey to him/her what I have found. I pray that I find a soul that I can convince to listen to me and not insist that they must go themselves through all the same steps that I have done over the last few weeks already (charging me $75+ per hour do do the same things that I have done) I hope that I will find someone with a real scope that may be able to pin-point where my problem lies.

Heavy Sigh....

 

Good find on the 96 Probe connector.

By way of parting advice, since you have four shops as candidates, have a look around at the shops, talk to the tech, and check out whether they have the IDS system as well as the ability to use it. Write up your diagnostics in detail. See their reaction to your diagnostics. If the vibe is not right, then it is time to move on to the next candidate. Don't burn any ships because you might have to go back, just say that you want another opinion.

Do the above before towing the car in, unless it is good enough to leave under its own steam.

Finally, before commiting .. ask how they are going to proceed.

Good luck!

 

Would be a shame to concede now after 34 years, so why not opt to go for the IDS? It’s a very powerful tool and for me always a great help in diagnosing/monitoring, and they are relatively cheap to get. Am not going to say it will solve the issue, but as you can monitor so much better, it might give clues that can lead to the issue.

Am still leaning towards an O2 sensor heating issue, you might want to check if you see actually current flowing to the heater of the sensor. With the IDS you can see when the ECU activates the heater, so you know when current should flow to the sensor.

Another trick you could do to see if it is related to the O2 measurements is to force the ECU into staying open loop for that bank. One way is to deactivate the heating in a way the ECU can detect it and you get a P0051 error.

 

No giving up. You certainly haven't lost face, just the opposite.
If it's not Avos's heater idea it's the ECM. It can't be anything else.
The guy that mends ECMs is a member here
ECU Doctors
website http://www.ecudoctors.com
why not pm him and see what he thinks?

 

I guess its indeed either one, how/where the signals get deformed is to be found; maybe the symptoms are already known by the ECU doctors, so definitely worth to check as suggested. In addition I would still suggest de-activating the closed loop on bank 2, that will prove without any doubt the above, but don’t forget to reset the ECU, otherwise it will continue using the learned fuel trims from the bad situation (which is why you have an issue even after you have left the car cool down).

 

Andre - can you help maxwdg with the details of your heater trick?
I guess he's not going to go for IDS but I think I speak for all of us that we don't want to see him beaten after such a Herculean effort.

 

Thanks for the continued suggestions and the welcome encouragement, guys.

Steve, I was on the "it must be the ECU trail a few weeks back, and I DID look up various providers of ECU refurbishment and repair.

ECUdoctors.com WAS my first choice... But, unfortunately the following is the information I received from them:

"Unfortunately, at this time we don't repair those ECU's.
Thank you for your interest.
Have a great day,
Jen Diaz
Specialized ECU Repair
www.ECUdoctors.com"

Well.... Hell

AVOS Steve is correct, I just don't "get down into the weeds" so very often with enough new cars to jump right into the purchase of IDS software and a computer to run it. I tend to spend more time on vintage automobile work. My plan, for this summer WAS to freshen up my 1962 Dodge for the car-show circuit - not to have my "daily driver" Jag take up every bit of my spare time!!!

That being said, I would really like to try to the forced deactivation of "closed loop" operation of Bank 2. Would temporarily cutting one of the leads going to the Primary O2 sensor's heater accomplish this? If not, please enlighten me on how exactly to do that deactivation...

I would much prefer actually driving my car to a diagnostic repair facility rather than borrowing or renting a car-trailer to tow it. (The way the engine tends to run mega-rich on bank 2 when it starts misfiring, I'm not certain the car should be driven very far) All of the repair shops in this area are at least a 30 mile drive from my home.

Not to pollute the theory stream further - but for what it's worth, I keep wondering why spark plugs 2 and 8 are the only two plugs that get horribly fuel-fouled when the car starts to miss - However, the ECU throws codes for ALL FOUR bank two cylinders???

Hmmmm,

 

Sorry for the bum steer to ECU doctors. Not over impressed with their reply.
This is too difficult for me. I do believe you have a crap ECM, I just can't make it work any other way - and if it helps I've done a lot of small hour thinking about your problem because I really feel for you.

 

For the sake of clarity, can you draw out *your* view of the cylinder and bank numbering?

There are some points on the system that are shared on a bank basis.

For the ECU, can you borrow one? Maybe buy a used one, and if it is not the fix, then resell it and consider the difference to be a "rental" fee. Maybe there is a ebayer willing to rent one to you if you message them.

edit:

notice the numbering of the injectors and coils on the electrical diagram, the splice points could be front and back as easily as left and right:

(X308/SC)

FUEL INJECTOR – 1A
FUEL INJECTOR – 1B
FUEL INJECTOR – 2A
FUEL INJECTOR – 2B
FUEL INJECTOR – 3A
FUEL INJECTOR – 3B
FUEL INJECTOR – 4A
FUEL INJECTOR – 4B


IGNITION COIL – 1A
IGNITION COIL – 1B
IGNITION COIL – 2A
IGNITION COIL – 2B
IGNITION COIL – 3A
IGNITION COIL – 3B
IGNITION COIL – 4A
IGNITION COIL – 4B

 

Plums

If I'm understanding correctly what you are asking me to "draw" out:

For my 2003 (manufactured in December of 2002) the 4.2L cyl numbering is as follows....


1 Bank 2
-------------
7 8
5 6
3 4
1 2
Front of Engine

I have verified the pins and continuity to everything (fuel and electrical) on Bank2 back to the computer, using the wiring schematic for the engine and all appear to have good connection. Plums, I'm not quite sure what your list is indicating for me to check?

My Father-in-Law has become friends with a technician at the Jag Dealer in Oklahoma City. This tech offered the use of an ECU he had on the shelf IF it was the correct part number for my car... It unfortunately, was not correct for my car. I have though about buying one off Ebay - but when I looked several times a couple of weeks ago there was not any for sale. I have not looked since then - I will take a look again later today. It was my attempt to locate an ECU that led me to the aforementioned "ECUdoctors.com" I was really surprised with their "we don't repair those ECUs" response... Oh well, if it come to that (replacing the ECU) - which it increasingly looks as though it might, I'll find one somewhere.

Anybody reading this have one they want to sell or "rent" to me for a test?

Car= 2003 XKR, supercharged VIN# SAJDA41B533A35338

The ECU has two stickers with ID information of them:

Sticker one:

Jaguar X100 4.2L S/C

3W83-10K975-BE BE

sticker two:

Denso 009123*
12v SPAIN WB079700-9123



Hey, anybody know where I can find the VCATS number for my car?
I was told there would be a "Build Sticker" in the trunk somewhere. And on that placard I could find the proper ECU number for my engine. I have looked everywhere I could think of on my car and found nothing. I looked through all the owner's manuals too...

 

This is the what a "Build Sticker" (called the VCATS label by the factory) looks like:



This pic is a 2000MY and the label was behind the luggage compartment bulkhead carpet. ECM is the last code in the list.

The ECU itself had the matching identifier LNF1410BC but nothing else on it giving the additional /517 shown on the VCATS label.

I understand that LNF1410 = ECU Module and will be common to all. Then BC is the series but I'm not sure what relevance the /XXX may be.

Graham

 

Let's try to summarise - the Devil's always in the detail and he's got too many places to hide in this thread.
If I'm wrong please correct me and I'll work it back into this post to keep things clear and simple.
If I'm not sure the text is in italics

2003 XKR, work on fuel rail completed OK, injectors cleaned and tested, knock sensors replaced.

Worked fine for a few days then develped a misfire with STFTs hard against the lean stop on bank 2
This only occurs in closed loop-or does it?
O2 sensors working correctly and not cross wired (Ford report DTCs for this TSB 01-9-7 HO2S Service Tips but they don't appear in JTIS)
TPS connector fault found and corrected.
The fault has cleared and recurred several times apparently randomly.
Bank2 O2 sensor reports rich
Bank2 STFTS set hard lean and also setting LTFTS lean

What can we say for sure?
1. Can't be timing because car runs well sometimes
2. Can't be air leak/MAF/TPS/EGR because both banks would be affected
3. Can't be misfire due to bad plug/coil/injector because that would send more O2 to the sensor

So the feedback loop should be working (O2 giving v rich, STFT trying to compensate)
but it isn't so either an injector is sticking open or the ECM is reacting incorrectly to the inputs.

Can you put a scope on the injector drive to see what the pulse width is?

If you've got a dual input scope you could compare an injector on bank 1 with bank 2
If the pulse on bank 2 is shorter than bank 1 the ECM is reacting correctly and you've got a leaky/sticky injector - but this shouldn't be affected by open/closed loop
If the pulse width on bank 2 is longer then the ECM mapping is screwed - you'll need to check all 4 injector pulses since the ECM drives the injectors directly and it is possible
one of the driver transistors isn't turning off - but this should affect both open and closed loop.

 

the XXX is the program loaded to the ECU, the important factor in matching ECU's, so when looking for a replacement it should match. Generally the same model year and model car (and market i.e. North America) will do the job.

 

Sean,

Thanks for that suffix explanation and the TSB attachment.

The TSB states 'specific market and features' so that really restricts the opportunities for finding an exact substitute certain to avoid any dealer reprogramming.

Graham

 

It's a 2003 XKR no?

Except that some component can be in a temperature sensitive failure mode. That includes connectors.

In the case of transistors and other electronic components, they can sometimes be tested using a aerosol can specially sold for that purpose. It is sprayed on components to see if a change in temperature causes a change in behaviour. A can of air works pretty well as a substitute these days.

It could be some component in the ECU that is not involved in open loop operation, but that kicks in only in closed loop. That fits the symptoms better than a component like a fuel injector that would be affected in both modes of operation. If it is also affected by heat it is likely a high current device.

A possible test could be to run with the ECU packed with ice packs around it to keep it cool and see if the good running lasts longer. Especially on a shutdown + restart.

Oh, what about the ECU fan? There is a separate cooling fan in that cubby that has always seemed to be a risky design element. The two things that fail most often on computers are the drives and the cooling fans in the power supply. No one ever thinks about those fans until they die. They die because they seize up.

The ECU warms up the most when the car is first shutdown because there is no airflow at that point. It just sits there quietly baking from its own heat and the radiated engine bay heat.

If the XKR does not have that fan like the X308, then never mind

 

I am still homing in on the bank 2 fuel rail damper malfunctioning. Why?

1. Because it was 'messed with' during the fuel rail repair
2. Because it would only affect one entire bank
3. It is not straightforward to test

See this post from a Subaru forum:
(All Years) If u are having misfire codes and idling problems read - Subaru Forester Owners Forum

 

Steve, those are definitely valid reasons (particularly 3)
You know far more about these engines than I do - I can see how a bad damper could force a lean mix by restricting fuel flow but we've got hard negative STFTs and a rich O2 sensor so there's too much fuel getting in.

@Plums, all very valid points, as usual. Fixed car type, thanks.
Do you know if disconnecting one O2 sensor will force open loop?
That way we can prove or disprove the 'problem only occurs in closed loop' hypothesis.

 

I am just hypothesizing like everyone else, but it seems plausible that there could be a resonance in the fuel rail at certain RPMs that could cause pressure spikes if the the damper is malfunctioning.

 

Wow ! You Guys! Thank you so much for working your minds (from afar) along with me on this!

For the last two months, my friends and family have been real quick to tell me what they think about me choosing to drive "A Jaaaaag." Blah Blah Probematic turds, Blah Blah Half breed Ford/Jag mongoloids, Blah Blah See... I told you! I say back to them.....What-The-F-Ever!

Well, How many marques have the serious support on a forum like we have here??? How MANY I ask?

Not many, I'm certain.


WhiteXKR Fuel rail problem was (I was told by a tech at "InjectorRX"who has supposedly see dozens of cases like these in the last few years) directly related to alcohol in the premium fuel available most places here in Missouri... The O-Ring on the left rail damper got gummy and began to leak at the high fuel pressure these XKRs from 2003 up run. Jag says the rails are not repairable - InjectorRX sez bullsh*t - He's seen the problem and repairs it regularly on marine applications down there in Houston.

I suppose it could be a resonance problem (If) the damper was not working properly - but, the problem is a "rich" situation on cyl 2 and 8. and the no doubt somehow related, Bank 2 Short term fuel trim response to the out-of-whack rich fuel condition. Anyhow, thank god I have another fuel rail (Over $700 from Jaguar - I found it on Ebay - with injectors - for $42... delivered to my door) that I can put into service if it become apparent that this is a mechanical problem.

I HAVE pulled the rail a second time, when I re-tested the injectors a month ago. And since the rail had been represented as "good-to-go" and had NEW O-rings by InjectorRX, I reinstalled the injectors into that rail.

Because of the huge pain in the butt that changing the rail out a third time (requires a full removal of the top of the engine) would be, I have not jumped into that (mechanical problem) conclusion. Also, the engine runs like a banshee EVERY time the ECU goes into "Open Loop" mode.

Thanks though, White, for keeping that possibility fresh in my mind - I DO like simple solutions. I'm just not prepared to tear the engine down again to try that one out. - Not saying that all this other crap has been easy.

Plums I have seen that ECU fan in the ECU enclosure and it runs free - it aint stuck as we say here in Missourahh! In fact I applied 9volts from a variable DC supply to it just to make certain it works. That did not determine that the temperature sensor mounted to the inside the box is not bad, but it did tell me that it is likely that the fan will come on when/if needed. I don't think the problem lies directly with the temperature of the ECU though - as it often will consistently miss even upon a cold start up. I can't predict WHEN or IF the damn thing will wake up and run right EVER.

As a recording engineer with 30 years of problematic equipment behind me knows, what I said above about the fan working, doesn't negate the potential of a component acting heat-funky - particularly the driver transistors that are mounted around the outside edge of the ECU against the aluminum frame to heat-sink them. Your suggestion of a heat "related" ECU problem may exist, and it would not take that much work to pull the ECU apart, hook it up without the case top & bottom and give it strategic squirts with canned "air" turned upside down to see if I get a change in operation. Perhaps I should try that??

GGG Thanks for the 'Look under the carpet" suggestion! The guys at the OKC shop told me that VCATS sticker would be in the spare tire well. They never said "pull the carpet back and peek everywhere around the trunk." I bet I WILL find it there!

Steveinfrance Thanks for the summary: Yes, I think you managed to get most of the symptoms put into a very concise post. Don't have a scope - Boy do I ever wish I did. I would have put this beast on a scope WEEKS ago - in retrospect, I truly wish I would have taken it to a diagnostician that had a scope - because I think your summary conclusion seems pretty logical to me. The injectors on cyl #2 and #8 are staying open too long! Those injectors are NOT sticking - I have established that - so the logical conclusion is that the ECU is outputting a crap signal.

I put a call into a shop here in KC that works mostly on Porsche's - but one of the techs called me and says he owns three Jags with 4.2 engines and is "very comfortable with the engine management systems of these cars." He said he'd be happy to work on the problem....Now if I can just get mine to run "open loop" on bank2, I can DRIVE it to his shop and work WITH him to find this bugger of a problem. Otherwise I'll be trailering the car. I have the truck, but not a trailer to do so. I think I have the resources to find one though....

You guys have given me more info... so, I'm going to try a few more things before I jump ship and give her to someone else to heal.

With renewed vigor, I head once more into the fray!