Marc - I've moved your post to the current thread on this sad saga.
Never has a guy tried so hard and been so consistently kicked in the teeth - and physically assaulted!

 

Steve: Thanks for the Nag but I've been laying low on the Jag this week for several reasons... After I got the stitches removed from my finger, I resumed my every-day dirty and greasy activities too soon and ended up with an infection starting in several of the cuts the supercharger pulley dealt me. So I thought, I better be careful and keep the antibacterial salve close at hand for awhile. Additionally, I'm gathering my tax info for the preparer. (We choose to get an extension each year and for us, tax "season" is October 15.) I HATE PAPERWORK! One final excuse... The shop I was consulting with as of Friday, had not yet received the IDS update they were planning on using for more in-depth analysis of the green-meanie.

marcgr: Thanks for the good reading your links sent me too! I think I've been able to get that system full - without air bubbles but I'm looking forward to reading the stuff MrTexasDan has so nicely written up.

Also, I agree with you about the demeanor and approach of a Mech Engineer in comparison to an Electrical Engineer. When I was in college I like to say that I "banked my own fires" by getting an associate's degree in auto-mechanics along with the bachelors in broadcast engineering!

Really, though... I just wanted to use the shop at school to restore and rebuild my 1970 Plymouth Duster 340!! And got a degree while doing it...Heheh heh!

 

Barry,
We're all with you on this one, I, personally, am determined to see resolution.
Take your time and keep in touch.

 

Hi Maxwdge, hope your hand heals up soon. Was just going through your post again, from the start, looking at the codes it threw.
P1314 misfire rate catalyst damage bank2
P1316 injector circuit IDM codes detected.
IDM = injector drive module.
When you did the initial repair, might you have damaged the injector wires?
Found this link when looking up IDM,
Injector Drive Module Service Tips
It is not for jaguars, but might help, especially parts referring to cam position sensor, and "If the battery voltage during cranking drops below 10.5 volts the IDM relay will shut off. "

the other link concerns the supercharger duct seal.
Rough Running / Idle
good luck
Pete

 

I'm Baaaaaaack! With cautiously good news!!!!

First to fredd60 Thanks for your suggestions: I did some research on "Injector Drive Modules" and as near as I can tell our XKRs don't need/use those drive modules. They seem to be a part of diesel injected vehicles where as our injectors are capable of being fired by the lower voltages present from the output transistors of the ECU. Check me if I'm wrong here.

Also, one of the first very careful checks that I performed was a leak test of the supercharger duct seals. She was sealed up as good as those kind of strangely designed seals can get!

About 10 days ago, I sent a message to the Jaguar tech at the shop that had attempted to diagnose my sick ride, asking if the IDS software had arrived yet. He told me "not yet" and he'd call me ASAP when it does.

Undaunted, I moved on... Last week, after about 4 days, of tax preparation and sorting through receipts from 2011, I finalized my taxes and got back to thinking about the important things in my life - my family and MY CAR!

A friend alerted me to an estate sale that he had been to on Wednesday where he had seen "some kind of oscilloscope" on a shelf with a price of $25.00. I called the estate sales people the next day and besides hearing that the scope was still available, I was told that Thursday was the last day for the sale and everything was marked half price! I dropped by during my lunch hour and picked up a nice old 15MHZ B&K Dual-trace scope complete with both probes for the grand total of $12.50!!! Ha! And it still worked great!!! SCORE!!!!

That scope was just what I was looking for to begin an intensive look at what the hell the injectors were seeing (as far as wave patterns) and with the scope being a "dual trace" variety, I could compare a good cylinder to the two obviously bad or waaaaay rich cylinders.

So Friday night I jumped in and with a friend... We pulled the connector free from under a bunch of hoses and back-pinned the left (bank 2) fuel injector harness connector (thats the one sitting horizontally affixed to a metal arm secured by one of the thermostat housing manifold bolts on the front left top of the engine - under the charge-air cooler hoses.) Hooking up the first probe to injector 2 trigger wire and second probe to injector 4 trigger - then grounding the scope at a shock tower bolt. We set about to take a look at what must be a big difference in waveforms, right?

Well, I started the car and, as usual, it sputtered, missed and blue black soot out of the left exhaust pipe. As we tried to adjust the scope for a stable waveform display one of the probes came loose and fell on the floor. I turned the engine off for about a minute while we reattached, more securely, the test probes.

When the car was restarted..... Every thing started running perfect!!!! No missing and smooth running. As the engine warmed up, we stabilized the waveform readouts and amused ourselves watching the injector pulse wave forms get longer and shorter as I gave the throttle a goose and backed off. Everything ran perfect and the pulses for cylinders 2 and 4 looked exactly the same on the scope. After running for about 10 minutes, I shut the engine down and pulled spark plugs 2 and 8 to "read" them. They were, not surprisingly perfectly clean! That, for the 1st time in over a month!!!! Upon, restart, the engine, again, started and ran perfectly.

At all of the above times I was monitoring "live data" with my scanner tool and, it too, displayed a perfectly running engine with Fuel Trims all hovering around Zero.

We took the car out for a late-night hoon and she ran fast and clean in all types of driving. We drove it for about 30 minutes.

Not being able to diagnose problems with a car running superbly, we put her to bed for the night.

The next day, to my surprise, it ran perfectly all day! I put a hundred miles on the clock, lots of starts and re-starts, fast and slow driving, in and out of traffic.... Perfect, I say !

Sunday, Monday, today.... Same deal! I believe I have my car back ! I'm soooo excited... I think......

Here's the "rub." What the hell made it run right again? Pulling the injector connector from under the hoses to get an easier path to the back of the connector in order to "back pin" the electrodes??? In the past three months, I've checked that connector a half dozen times, I have cleaned the electrodes, I've slathered dielectric grease on it to ward off any future corrosion, I've traced every wire through that connector and harness all the way to the ECM at least three times! What gives here? Furthermore, if a connector or harness was "bad" it would either conduct electricity or not, right? How could a "bad" connector cause two injectors to stay open longer than they are supposed to - creating a over-rich condition???? An injector staying open longer to my understanding of electronics COULD NOT POSSIBLY be caused by a bad, intermittent or corroded connection.

Man, I just don't get it. In fact, I've NEVER been this superstitious, but now I'm afraid to even touch the connector and harness. It's kind of sticking out there - above the charge air cooler coolant hoses in a very unkempt way - I hate that! But... My favorite car runs wonderful again! I don't want to screw things up..... but at the same time, I know that if I don't figure it out, it's bound to bite me in the *** again at any time!

Elated, but fearful and anxious about a repeat of my own personal hell!

 

Congratulations on the good news, but not knowing is going to niggle at you.
Keep us posted on how it goes.

 

I told you to put a scope on it!
It has sucked the Deamons out of the ECM.
Be careful, they're inside the scope now.
If I read the wiring diagram correctly the injectors are permanently live, the ECM grounds the return to open them.
Is there a clue here?
What would happen if an injector was permanently on due to a short to ground of the wire to the ECM ?
Presumably it would pee petrol into the cylinder as long as cylinder pressure was < fuel rail pressure.
The same would happen, of course, if the ECM driver had 'jammed' ON.
Could moving the injector cabling have broken an intermittent short to earth?
I think you're going to find that scope most useful if it happens again.

 

Wow! Steve... You are absolutely correct! I do believe the injectors have a solid B+ feed and the ECU switches them to ground. Yes Yes THAT is a wonderful clue. I'd put $$ on the problem being a short to ground problem on #2 and #8 injectors.

What a revelation! Why had I not searched for this before?

In the words of Forrest Gump "I am not a smart man Jen-nay."

But wait.... If it were a short to ground in the harness, why would it ALWAYS run like a supercar when the ECU went into "open loop" operation and it was at or near full throttle? Damn! More puzzling questions to squash an easy answer

 

B*gg*r.
You're right.
It has to be the ECM then.
UNLESS (clutching a passing straw) the short only happened when the injun was hot - nothing to do with open/closed loop and hence the unreliable results.
I recall it still happened if you forced open loop by disconnecting an 02 sensor ??
This has been a fascinating (for me, crap for you) intellectual challenge and the best (worst) problem I've seen on JF.
At least I've got confidence you will take a logical approach to it and we will sort the swine out.
You have no idea how frustrating it can be to spend ages on a problem and not even get a reply.

 

Based on your latest revelations, I am leaning more towards two of the injector wires shorted together intermittently, rather than a short to ground. At near open throttle, I think timing is so fast that the mistimed sqirt may have had little impact.

I also noticed that the 'R' has an extension cable to each bank of four injectors. Perhaps a very close examination of that extension cable is in order.

 

Hey! My car has made me famous and become a benchpoint here with my favorite crowd of gear-heads!

****** Bow taken ********

Thank you! Couldn't have done it on my own..... Hi Mom!

Seriously, Steve the constant missing on cyls 2 and 8 has been present in every state the car could be in - Cold, Hot, Idling, Driving, Not Driving..... EXCEPT full throttle! Until the jiggering of that connector and the two harnesses it connects NOTHING has caused a predictable and repeatable result.

White I too, have guessed that in full throttle, two injectors sticking open might not be real noticeable - since the engine is demanding all the fuel the injectors presumably could deliver.... Hmmmmm

Also, RE: the extension cable? I'm not certain what you are talking about. My car has a huge connector block behind the throttle body where most of the engine wiring harness starts. Some tentacles go forward and left and some go forward and right. The injector wires ALL go to the right side of the engine, past the outside of the right charge-aire cooler and turn left and go across the top of the engine - behind the main coolant manifold and over the snout of the supercharger. I don't think there's an intermediate connector in that harness (that I know of) only terminations where the injector wires pass through two 5 pin (5 "active" pins that is) connectors and on to the actual injector harness for each bank. Am I missing a connector?

I have disassembled and cleaned the the big harness connector behind the throttle body.

Again, for the 10th time, thanks for hanging with me guys!

 

Unfortunately, I do not have a 2003 handy to check, but I am referring to the note in figure 4.2, of JTIS (2003 Electrical Diagram) upper left of the page "** NOTE: IJ1 and IJ2 –
Supercharged engine only."

 

Overnight (and pretty obvious) thoughts - if the 2 injectors were sticking open going closed loop would make things worse - in open loop the other 2 injectors in that bank would be delivering a 'sensible' dose based on the fuel map. In closed loop the O2 sensor would see a 'lean' mix due to excess O2 from the misfiring 'drowned' cylinders and ramp up the trims making things worse.
As you say giving it full wick would ameliorate the rich mix.

 

WhiteXKR I have the 2003 wiring diagram (on my work bench and in the trunk of my car!) so I'll check it closely. I remember when my friend and I were hooking up the scope and checking the diagram for wire colors seeing the comments"NOTE: IJ1 and IJ2 –Supercharged engine only."

Steve I'm confused about the third part of your comment.

When the engine is rich misfiring on Cyls 2&8 the computer is producing Bank 2, Short Term Fuel Trim Values of negative 25% or higher. I thought that was the O2 sensor detecting a low oxygen level - indicating "super rich" condition - thus the ECU is attempting to pull the fuel back. (But obviously, not being successful because some problem is holding the injectors open)

By the way, last night, I got brave and pulled the injector connector apart, re-routed the harnesses back to their correct, OEM positions and started her up. The car still ran correctly. Good news....but obviously, the puzzle remains.

 

Taking a step back to add perspective to all this work - I just want to mention that last night, after moving the connector and wiring harness, I took my KR out for a drive. (It's been so long since she's been capable, I'll use ANY excuse to drive her!)

It was a nice, cool, dry, 58 degree early fall evening in Kansas City, and since I've been driving my baby for nearly a week without it's bad behavior, my confidence level in her fitness has risen. I couldn't help myself but to mash the loud peddle more than a few times on some of the backroads near home.

Wow! It could be that my "butt dyno" has become out of calibration, but this things QUICKER than it was before the fuel rail leak caused the situation that forced her out-of-service for 3 months! Perhaps it was the cool temps that made the difference (I do have the "Powerhouse" small supercharger pulley and K&N filter installed - plus the big front behemoth muffler removed) but in any case..... VaaaaRoooooom!

I suppose it could be that the fuel injector cleaning may have had a positive effect on full throttle operation. On the graph that "Injector RX" provided, most of the injectors showed an increased flow after cleaning.

What ever the cause, I got my thrill back at hand... or foot!

Just thought I'd pass some GOOD news along.

 

Great stuff - keep us posted.
You're right about the trims - I should have re-read the earlier post rather than thinking I'd remembered correctly.
The hypothesis must be that the two rogue cylinders were actually firing to drop the 02 as you say.
I suppose in closed loop the two good cylinders would then be running incredibly lean.
I hate to say so but I do wish you'd found a nice frayed bit in the wiring. Don't like faults that 'go away'.
Good luck and please keep us posted.

 

Well, it has been 16 days and 750 miles since "The Mean Green" just woke up and decided to run right.

In the last two weeks I have taken the bank two injector harness loose from the main injector harness (at the connector) several times. Twice, when I had the harnesses disconnected, I probed the wires for shorts to other wires and open circuits as I flexed and shook the wires, looking for clues to my three month ordeal. I introduced voltage at the main injector harness and checked at the ECU connector (with it disconnected from the ECU) for continuity problems and cross voltage on any of the other cylinder's injector wires. Because I can not get to every injector plug to disconnect all the injectors, my checks of the injector harness from connector to individual injector were not as thorough as I would have liked them to be. By "backpinning" the injector plugs, I did establish that despite what I feel was the best theory (#2 and #8 trigger wire either shorting together or somehow crosstalking - put forth first by WhiteXKR) I could not observe that occurrence no matter how much fiddling with the harness I did.

After each time I experimented, I finished by re-routing the wires nicely and correctly - under the coolant hoses, and a test drive of the car. It continues to idle and run flawlessly!

After 750 good solid miles and several attempts to pinpoint the precise problem, I believe I must pronounce my XKR "fixed." As Steveinfrance has noted, the the oscilloscope must have sucked the gremlin out of my ride - and I hope it stays there!

To all that have spent sooooo much time and mental energy to put into words fantastic ideas meant help me.... My sincerest thank you goes out to each. I wish that we all lived nearby so that I could treat you all to some famous Kansas City BBQ and toast you all with a good ol' USA beer!!!!

Steve, I think you could end this thread with a "solved" at the header - if you wish. I tried to do so, but I guess forum members cant add to a thread title.

I'm off to start another couple of threads - One a thank you, and supplier recommendation and another about adding a very custom water/methanol injection system to my car in order to bring that intake air temp down and thwart a bit of pre-ignition cropping up with my supercharger pulley modification.

Maxwdg OUT !

 

Don't reconnect that scope !
Glad all's well, you deserve a medal (and several beers)

 

What a thread!

I'm very glad it's working but would love to know what was actually wrong - dubious wire/connector seems most likely.

 

Yes, an epic thread - I think we'd all like to know exactly what went right here!
This still wasn't the end of things
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...rt-deux-85186/