Rear Camber out of alignment
#21
08-19-2014 | 08:04 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 328
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From: Sarnia, Ontario, Canada
I removed the 4.0mm Factory Spacers and installed the 7.5mm units when I installed the Mina Rear Lowering Springs. Camber is now in spec.
There are small "Ears" on the Half-Shaft Flange and the Differential Flange that Center the Flanges on the Spacer. It is not recommended that the Spacer Pack be made up of thinner Spacers Stacked together, although some have done that without problems.
There are small "Ears" on the Half-Shaft Flange and the Differential Flange that Center the Flanges on the Spacer. It is not recommended that the Spacer Pack be made up of thinner Spacers Stacked together, although some have done that without problems.
I have purchased the same springs and spacers as you. I am following your lead on this, did you replace your rear spring packer and if so what did you go with 3.4mm/2.9mm or 6.55mm/6.05mm? Thanks
Last edited by Rezzz; 08-19-2014 at 08:23 PM.
#22
08-19-2014 | 08:35 PM
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From: Milwaukee, WI
1 yr after installing the Lowering Springs, I noticed that the Rear Camber, while not really excessive , probably would benefit in a change to prevent Tire Inner Wear, so I replaced the Factory 4mm Axle Spacers with the 7.5mm units.
See also:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/x...omplete-54377/
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Rezzz (08-19-2014)
#23
10-15-2014 | 11:37 PM
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Joined: Apr 2012
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From: Yorktown Va
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/a...0210-final-pdf
Several things on this from my perspective.
1, yes that toe out right rear would definitly cause inside tire wear, not camber
2, i dont like the front toe specs being in the middle because as you drive it pushes out. On your year car mileage etc i can almost bet money that it will toe out too much as you drive. If i aligned i would have brought to the inside of toe in spec front
.18-.21 maybe even in the red toed in depending on how much the settings move when pushing out on the inside of front tires while aligning to simulate what your suspension is going to do driving not sitting on the rack. Aka mercedes benz pressor bar. Everything else looks fine
Several things on this from my perspective.
1, yes that toe out right rear would definitly cause inside tire wear, not camber
2, i dont like the front toe specs being in the middle because as you drive it pushes out. On your year car mileage etc i can almost bet money that it will toe out too much as you drive. If i aligned i would have brought to the inside of toe in spec front
.18-.21 maybe even in the red toed in depending on how much the settings move when pushing out on the inside of front tires while aligning to simulate what your suspension is going to do driving not sitting on the rack. Aka mercedes benz pressor bar. Everything else looks fine
looking at your post and see that I can attach an alignment printout...this car is lowered with 20" wheels, I'm totally lost with the rear shim calculation, want to order shims but just need some direction.
#24
10-27-2014 | 11:07 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 6
Likes: 6
From: Paoli. PA
XK8 lowered springs and rear camber adjustment
I decided to post this because I found it really hard to find any one place that contained all the information about installing lower (sport) suspension springs on an XK8 and then dealing with the resulting rear camber adjustment issues.
I have encountered numerous sources (including some Jaguar dealers) stating that the XK8’s rear suspension cannot be adjusted for camber or at least cannot be adjusted enough to compensate when lowered springs are installed. I am here to tell you that the required camber adjustment is possible (I am not saying that there isn’t some effort and cost involved).
I installed a set of H&R Sport Springs on my 1998 XK8 (non-CATS) purchased from Tire Rack (http://www.tirerack.com) that lowered the car approximately 1.5-inches front and rear. The H&R Sport Springs cost substantially less than any other option (Mina, Arden, etc.) I could find.
The resulting rear camber measurement was left -2.5 degrees, right -2.8 degrees (the correct setting should be -0.5 for both sides). When viewed from behind, the top of the rear wheels tilted inward noticeably looking like the car was heavily loaded. The rear camber adjustment on the XK8 is accomplished by inserting shims between the differential and the axel half-shafts to add positive camber (moving the top of the wheel outward).
According to an article I found: "0.5mm of shim per 0.2 (positive) degrees" (http://www.justanswer.com/jaguar/6yqh3-jaguar-xxk8-xk8-1997-need-wheel-alignment.html) which meant that I would need 5.0 mm of shim on the left and 5.5 mm of shim on the right.
To be on the safe side, I ordered two 3.5 mm shims and 12 0.46 mm shims (these things are only available in 7.5 mm, 3.5 mm, and 0.46 mm thicknesses). The 3.5 mm shim was $39, while the 0.46 mm shims were $1.00 each (that’s why I didn’t mind getting a few extra). Please note: I could not find anywhere that said the 0.46 mm shims would even work on an XK8. Because both the 3.5 mm and the 0.46 mm were listing as working on a late XJS, I thought I would give it a shot.
Well, after some trial and error (installing both 3.5 mm shims and adding / removing the 0.46 mm shims as needed) the rear camber measurement is -0.6 degrees left and -0.3 degrees right. When viewed from the rear, the car looks as it should with the wheels / tires filling out the wheel wells nicely.
Below are the parts numbers and vendors for the shims. Jagbits had the best pictures and descriptions, Jaguar Parts Cheap had better prices (you have to search using the part numbers).
http://jaguar-parts.jagbits.com/rear-camber-shim
http://www.jaguarpartscheap.com/
Part #: C16621 .46 MM Shim
Part #: CBC480635 3.5 MM Shim
Part #: CBC480675 7.5 MM Shim
I hope all of this is of help to anyone contemplating the installation of lower springs on their XK8. Good luck!
I have encountered numerous sources (including some Jaguar dealers) stating that the XK8’s rear suspension cannot be adjusted for camber or at least cannot be adjusted enough to compensate when lowered springs are installed. I am here to tell you that the required camber adjustment is possible (I am not saying that there isn’t some effort and cost involved).
I installed a set of H&R Sport Springs on my 1998 XK8 (non-CATS) purchased from Tire Rack (http://www.tirerack.com) that lowered the car approximately 1.5-inches front and rear. The H&R Sport Springs cost substantially less than any other option (Mina, Arden, etc.) I could find.
The resulting rear camber measurement was left -2.5 degrees, right -2.8 degrees (the correct setting should be -0.5 for both sides). When viewed from behind, the top of the rear wheels tilted inward noticeably looking like the car was heavily loaded. The rear camber adjustment on the XK8 is accomplished by inserting shims between the differential and the axel half-shafts to add positive camber (moving the top of the wheel outward).
According to an article I found: "0.5mm of shim per 0.2 (positive) degrees" (http://www.justanswer.com/jaguar/6yqh3-jaguar-xxk8-xk8-1997-need-wheel-alignment.html) which meant that I would need 5.0 mm of shim on the left and 5.5 mm of shim on the right.
To be on the safe side, I ordered two 3.5 mm shims and 12 0.46 mm shims (these things are only available in 7.5 mm, 3.5 mm, and 0.46 mm thicknesses). The 3.5 mm shim was $39, while the 0.46 mm shims were $1.00 each (that’s why I didn’t mind getting a few extra). Please note: I could not find anywhere that said the 0.46 mm shims would even work on an XK8. Because both the 3.5 mm and the 0.46 mm were listing as working on a late XJS, I thought I would give it a shot.
Well, after some trial and error (installing both 3.5 mm shims and adding / removing the 0.46 mm shims as needed) the rear camber measurement is -0.6 degrees left and -0.3 degrees right. When viewed from the rear, the car looks as it should with the wheels / tires filling out the wheel wells nicely.
Below are the parts numbers and vendors for the shims. Jagbits had the best pictures and descriptions, Jaguar Parts Cheap had better prices (you have to search using the part numbers).
http://jaguar-parts.jagbits.com/rear-camber-shim
http://www.jaguarpartscheap.com/
Part #: C16621 .46 MM Shim
Part #: CBC480635 3.5 MM Shim
Part #: CBC480675 7.5 MM Shim
I hope all of this is of help to anyone contemplating the installation of lower springs on their XK8. Good luck!
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PKlaar (10-13-2022)
#26
10-28-2014 | 07:29 PM
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From: London Ontario Canada
I just thought I would add this older post from plums
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The condition is somewhat obscure and relatively new because it does not apply to fixed live axle rear suspensions. It took a lot of searching to find the cause and solution after a particularly scary drive on slush over black ice on the highway. The little gem was finally located in a single thread on a automotive board in Canada ... the home of winter slush. This led to refining search terms to find more information. Most of it came from northern areas with a lot of snow. But, still not a lot of hits.
On a live rear axle the tires point straight ahead at all times ... provided the axle has not been bent or twisted.
However, on a independent rear suspension with adjustment provisions this is not usually true. There is usually some toe-in on the rear suspension. This toe-in or even worse, toe-out, will tend to push the rear end from side to side when the tire grip is not even in low traction situations. Each tire is fighting the other to be in the natural straight ahead position. If one gets the upper hand, the other is in worse position and will fight harder to get to straight ahead. The wobbles in the rear is the result of being a witness to the ebb and flow of the fight.
The solution is to set the rear toe-in to zero or just a hair in and exactly equal on both sides. Never toe out ... at least on Jaguars.
Doing the above requires either very careful DIY, or a custom four wheel alignment. "in spec" is not good enough as the spec is quite wide. I chose diy.
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The condition is somewhat obscure and relatively new because it does not apply to fixed live axle rear suspensions. It took a lot of searching to find the cause and solution after a particularly scary drive on slush over black ice on the highway. The little gem was finally located in a single thread on a automotive board in Canada ... the home of winter slush. This led to refining search terms to find more information. Most of it came from northern areas with a lot of snow. But, still not a lot of hits.
On a live rear axle the tires point straight ahead at all times ... provided the axle has not been bent or twisted.
However, on a independent rear suspension with adjustment provisions this is not usually true. There is usually some toe-in on the rear suspension. This toe-in or even worse, toe-out, will tend to push the rear end from side to side when the tire grip is not even in low traction situations. Each tire is fighting the other to be in the natural straight ahead position. If one gets the upper hand, the other is in worse position and will fight harder to get to straight ahead. The wobbles in the rear is the result of being a witness to the ebb and flow of the fight.
The solution is to set the rear toe-in to zero or just a hair in and exactly equal on both sides. Never toe out ... at least on Jaguars.
Doing the above requires either very careful DIY, or a custom four wheel alignment. "in spec" is not good enough as the spec is quite wide. I chose diy.
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#27
10-29-2014 | 08:56 PM
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From: Sarnia, Ontario, Canada
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The condition is somewhat obscure and relatively new because it does not apply to fixed live axle rear suspensions. It took a lot of searching to find the cause and solution after a particularly scary drive on slush over black ice on the highway. The little gem was finally located in a single thread on a automotive board in Canada ... the home of winter slush. This led to refining search terms to find more information. Most of it came from northern areas with a lot of snow. But, still not a lot of hits.
On a live rear axle the tires point straight ahead at all times ... provided the axle has not been bent or twisted.
However, on a independent rear suspension with adjustment provisions this is not usually true. There is usually some toe-in on the rear suspension. This toe-in or even worse, toe-out, will tend to push the rear end from side to side when the tire grip is not even in low traction situations. Each tire is fighting the other to be in the natural straight ahead position. If one gets the upper hand, the other is in worse position and will fight harder to get to straight ahead. The wobbles in the rear is the result of being a witness to the ebb and flow of the fight.
The solution is to set the rear toe-in to zero or just a hair in and exactly equal on both sides. Never toe out ... at least on Jaguars.
Doing the above requires either very careful DIY, or a custom four wheel alignment. "in spec" is not good enough as the spec is quite wide. I chose diy.
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2001 X308 SC
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Garage is empty, add now
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: on-the-edge
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The condition is somewhat obscure and relatively new because it does not apply to fixed live axle rear suspensions. It took a lot of searching to find the cause and solution after a particularly scary drive on slush over black ice on the highway. The little gem was finally located in a single thread on a automotive board in Canada ... the home of winter slush. This led to refining search terms to find more information. Most of it came from northern areas with a lot of snow. But, still not a lot of hits.
On a live rear axle the tires point straight ahead at all times ... provided the axle has not been bent or twisted.
However, on a independent rear suspension with adjustment provisions this is not usually true. There is usually some toe-in on the rear suspension. This toe-in or even worse, toe-out, will tend to push the rear end from side to side when the tire grip is not even in low traction situations. Each tire is fighting the other to be in the natural straight ahead position. If one gets the upper hand, the other is in worse position and will fight harder to get to straight ahead. The wobbles in the rear is the result of being a witness to the ebb and flow of the fight.
The solution is to set the rear toe-in to zero or just a hair in and exactly equal on both sides. Never toe out ... at least on Jaguars.
Doing the above requires either very careful DIY, or a custom four wheel alignment. "in spec" is not good enough as the spec is quite wide. I chose diy.
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2001 X308 SC
No one in Sarnia can even attempt to get a four wheel alignment right. I am putting the cart before the horse here because I will not need one until next spring but the closest to me would be the Detroit area unless you know of a good shop in London?
#28
10-30-2014 | 08:55 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 354
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From: London Ontario Canada
--I thought my 2003 XK8 was within spec (I even took it in for an alignment re-check) but it still had a wiggle when I drove in the rain. I'm pretty sure the miss-alignment/ toe in or +out caused me to rotate while hydroplaning, and crash. I do not know any good alignment shop in London, but there might be one somewhere.
#29
08-14-2016 | 06:47 PM
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 61
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From: Norfolk, UK
Rear camber adjustments.
Sorry to re-kindle this thread but I have been doing a lot of research on this subject, ever since I had rear lowering springs fitted and realised that I would have to re-adjust the rear camber back to the original settings.
So far, I've had a 4 wheel laser alignment performed on the Jag and at the same time, had the front end adjusted and also the rear toe-in re-set to factory settings.
I was then very kindly, supplied with an engineering drawing of the rear camber shim by a fellow forum member ......... Thank you
I now have a pair of 12mm thick, wire eroded, 2316 stainless steel rear camber shims ready to be surface ground to the correct thickness.
Next was to calculate the required total spacer thickness for each side:
**Note** All degree measurements are in Decimal Degrees.
Left rear camber = -1.92
Left rear toe = 0.12 (as per spec)
Right rear camber = -2.05
Right rear toe = 0.12 (as per spec)
I'm looking for a final rear camber of -0.5
Using the formula of a 0.5mm shim = 0.19 degrees, I came up with the following:
Rear left requires an additional shim thickness of 3.74mm
Rear right requires an additional shim thickness of 4.08mm
Assuming that I have the standard factory 4mm shims fitted (I will double check before starting) I will have a 7.74mm and an 8.08mm made from my 'home made' shims.
But ......... I now know that by adjusting the camber, it will effect the toe settings. Therefore with the above readings and adjustments, how far will the toe readings move by adding the thicker shims?
Basically, what is your best (accurate) guess at the overall shim sizes should I use to end up with my required rear camber 0f -0.5 and toe of 0.12
Thanks in advance
Tony
So far, I've had a 4 wheel laser alignment performed on the Jag and at the same time, had the front end adjusted and also the rear toe-in re-set to factory settings.
I was then very kindly, supplied with an engineering drawing of the rear camber shim by a fellow forum member ......... Thank you
I now have a pair of 12mm thick, wire eroded, 2316 stainless steel rear camber shims ready to be surface ground to the correct thickness.
Next was to calculate the required total spacer thickness for each side:
**Note** All degree measurements are in Decimal Degrees.
Left rear camber = -1.92
Left rear toe = 0.12 (as per spec)
Right rear camber = -2.05
Right rear toe = 0.12 (as per spec)
I'm looking for a final rear camber of -0.5
Using the formula of a 0.5mm shim = 0.19 degrees, I came up with the following:
Rear left requires an additional shim thickness of 3.74mm
Rear right requires an additional shim thickness of 4.08mm
Assuming that I have the standard factory 4mm shims fitted (I will double check before starting) I will have a 7.74mm and an 8.08mm made from my 'home made' shims.
But ......... I now know that by adjusting the camber, it will effect the toe settings. Therefore with the above readings and adjustments, how far will the toe readings move by adding the thicker shims?
Basically, what is your best (accurate) guess at the overall shim sizes should I use to end up with my required rear camber 0f -0.5 and toe of 0.12
Thanks in advance
Tony
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