How did you reach this conclusion?


And is the information not factual?

If he replaced the timing gear and A drum as preventative maintenance he'll be enjoying it too. It is also much more cost and labor effective than converting to a different powerplant and transmission.

Since when is 290hp underpowered? XJ40 and X300 saloons didn't break 250hp and I never found them lacking. The six cylinder DB7 is rated at 335 horsepower.

The AJV8 engines are engineering marvels especially considering the displacement to hp ratio. What's the displacement on the 400 RWHP LS?

By the way, this is not how I'd define "unreliable." These are trouble areas that simply need to be addressed. Unreliable is when your vehicle is giving you all sorts of random problems. Like a new member that just joined here told us about his 2010 GMC SUV.

Information on the timing gear has been out there a long time. Anyone who drives one of these cars without addressing it is playing Russian Roulette. Often times the engine makes noises telling you something is wrong - a warning. That why these lovely cars are being parted out. Somebody buys one for low money, doesn't maintain it, ruins engine, and then looks for something "reliable."

 

That you don't know **** about American cars? Its pretty obvious.

Your opinions are those of a 15 year old kid in the US. Someone who has a lot of opinions, but most seem to be based on someone else's opinion (or stuff you google) and not based on their own personal experience. It's not very persuasive.

You said 290 Hp in a 3800 lb GT is "not underpowered" ... maybe 20 years ago. Not in 2019. Little SUV's have 300+ Hp. and 10 year old Toyota Camry' and Honda accords 16 year olds drive have a higher Power to weight ratios. 290 at the crank is likely less than 250 HP at the rear wheels. Yawn. The same Chassis has 400 HP in the XKR convertible so it isn't like 400 HP is going to overpower a Coupe. It seems to be the makings of an excellent GT Coupe.

5.7L, but only 16 Year old kids argue "Hp per displacement" on the internet. The 3.8L in my T-type has over 500 RWHP. Big deal. If it was a Turbo LS it would have 900 HP. There are probably 30 700-900 HP street driven LS powered cars in my town of 15,000 people.

It's not 1998 anymore... man, those were the good old days when an 11 second street car was fast. Back in the day, I'd show up at the track, crack off an 11 second 1/4 mile, they'd threaten to kick me out for not having a roll bar, I'd promise to slow it down, but they'd eventually kick me out anyway, (slowing down is hard) and then I'd drive it 100 miles back home. If only we could go back before the days of the LS motor. Cars were much slower back then and an 11 second street car made you a hero..

This is why I asked you how many miles are on the non-existent X100 or X308 you own. Replacing the tensioners is no big deal. Its when all of the other plastic goes bad and there A LOT of plastic to go bad and it doesn't go bad from use. It will go bad just sitting there, living in a 21% Oxygen atmosphere... but who is going to proactively replace the entire timing train on a low mileage car... nobody.

In your expert internet opinion (or is that internet expert opinion?), should I spend $1000+ replacing a timing chain system on a car with only 42K miles (my '98 XJ8) on it to be safe? and this is a "reliable" motor in your opinion?

If it was an LS, it would be $100 repair and the answer would be "No. A 42K LS mile timing chain has 150K miles in it, no matter how old it is"

The AJ26 was a good engine for 1996. The 420 HP 4.9L in my Mustang thanks it for making it possible. In 2019 its an "ok" engine backed by an "ok" transmission, but neither is "good" based on 2019 criteria, especially with 20+ years on them. 20 years from now, when the junkyards aren't full of AJ26's I don't know what the guy is going to do when his Cam position sensor (just one of the countless plastic parts on an AJ26) crumbles to dust in his hand.

 

@Ungn You like power, that's fine. I prefer originality. My opinion of anything GM is based on personal experience as well as the experiences of others.

Absolutely I would spend the money to replace the system. Are you going to wait until the engine starts making noise? Or even worse? There is a 2003 x308 for sale now by me with just short of 150k miles. Seller says the transmission was rebuilt at 97k miles. Around the 100k mark is when I have noticed both the timing gear and trans failures tend to occur. Being it's an '03 it almost certainly came with the improved timing chain gear from the factory. Had this owner paid attention he could have saved his ZF and $$ well before it blew. So yeah, I'd say they're reliable engines despite this issue that is well known and can be sorted out.

Considering you can still find parts for the 4.2 straight six I don't see why it would be an issue for the AJ26 twenty years from now.

 

There's always polarising different views on engine swaps. I'm more in the line with the above especially the opinion "Do whatever you want, it's your car." You can debate the pros/cons on either the AJ-V8 or LS but the reality is we've old cars and whatever engine you have, they need tender loving and care. Most people for the X100 seem to have been drawn to the exterior lines and beauty, and GT capabilities. That was for me anyway. Stock originality is relevant if you have a valuable collector's car and I'm not sure the X100 will fall into the category. Apologies if I hurt someone's feelings with that humble opinion.

It's fair to say both LS and the AJ engines will now have a significant history for people to pour through reliability and maintenance (R&M) data rather than depend hearsay. This is a specialist field within the automotive industry (I've a friend in big Japanese company) but sadly he doesn't look beyond collecting data beyond years of warranty as the lack of maintenance records skews the results.

As for brute HP, my AJ-27 na 290bhp is fine for me. If I was looking for more HP, the XKR 4.2L SC is neat if you are looking for performance today. Someone here is even looking to put an upgraded throttle body on his, to match with his lovely solid aluminium air tunnel. It's his car! If my humble 4.0L engine grenades in my 1999 XK8 car, it will not be due to neglect, but the inevitable ticking of the clock. As I said these are old cars now. With a busted engine, I would then look to put in a replacement (re-built) engine simply as I know the fit up should be easier, rather than for the sake of originality.

A new modern interior doesn't interest me. If I'm driving, I never answer the phone and 100% do not check smart phone when I'm behind the wheel, so why should I look for a different modern "better" engine. However that not to say others might want to try. Good luck to them but that's wouldn't be my choice. If I did have a concern today, it's the new push for Ethanol E15 fuel that may cause engine problems. Again history will tell. We've been here before when lead was needed in fuel and was then removed. However modifications were made to older engines to accept the new unleaded fuel. I had a 1970 Triumph GT6 that I had to add lead fuel additive, so I changed the engine to accept unleaded fuel. Where would that stand in the debate as what engine is better, stock or modified? So when E15 does comes along, we'll fix it, in the future, when we need to.

For the future, the city folk are already turning to hybrid/electric cars, and the demand for the Internal Combustion Engine (ICE) will inevitably turn slowly downwards. That's not a bad thing, just progress. Our grandfathers drove horses and carts and now we have the ICE. In the future, we'll have fully autonomous cars which our sons and daughters won't actually need to drive. It's not too far off and will definitely happen in the cities. It's already being trialled. Where does that leave this LS versus AJ-V8 debate..... sometime in the future?

 

as a business manager i have a line which applies here, "don't make it personal and don't take it personally; get curious instead."

 

Experience with what? Vauxhall? Opel? a rebranded Daewoo? Something that was bought at auction in the US and sent to parts unknown in a shipping crate?

If I didn't live in the US, I'd be down on GM, too and their are many years of GM I won't buy. My Buick is arguably the greatest mass produced muscle car ever to be built in america (I've owned/driven a lot of them and it gets my vote) but would I ever consider buying a Buick built in the last 25 years? of course not... but all of this has Zero to do with the LS motor in 2019. Big power in a lightweight package with a huge aftermarket support network is why people swap them in.

30 Years ago, swapping in SBC's (small block chevies) was something mulleted rednecks did because they couldn't find or afford to fix the arguably better motor they took out (like an AMC 390, Jag V12).,, and they had an old pickup truck they rolled....

In 2019, It isn't mulleted rednecks doing LS swaps, but guys building $150K restomods and there is a whole culture built around these swaps (that also looks down on mulleted rednecks still doing SBC swaps)..

If every other classic car is any indication of future value, the more valuable X100's become in the future, the more (not less) valuable LS swapped X100's will become.


My hypothetical (and real) situation is a 42K mile car with swapped metal tensioners. On what planet do "reliable" cars need all of the plastic in the timing system replaced on a 42K mile car to "be safe"? The reality is it was $2,900 after tax title and licence and I'll drive it until it breaks.

That car sounds like a money pit. You should buy it and become a real expert instead just regurgitating things read on the internet about a car you've never owned. That's the "most reliable" version, too. It should be nearly trouble free. 150K miles is just broken (in).

You'll be able to buy them, it'll just be $400 for a Cam sensor that is $13 at the junkyard (if you can find one that isn't shattered). I don't claim to know the future, but it does have a habit of repeating itself, over and over and over.

 

I have a 2003 Corvette Z06, and a 2009 Jaguar XK.

If you are doing this swap for performance reasons just get the Corvette.

There is no contest, the Corvette is a better poised car.



In terms of value I would consider a LS swapped XK8 to be slightly less valuable than stock in that I would not travel to see one for sale; I would only consider local.

In terms of value, if you have an XKR, keep the AJV8 SC.

The LS swap does seem intriguing if you do a manual gearbox conversion along with it.

In terms of engine performance, my 4.2L AJV8 has a wider power band, but less peak HP than my LS.

I need to get the Corvette up to the top half of the rev range, the AJV8 just pulls all along the way.

Ungn, well said on HP/Displacement. Only counts in sanctioned races that draw the rules along displacement. And these days at the top levels of GT racing it is "Balance of Performance" rather than engine size.

For a street car it is the weight and package size that matters more than displacement/hp. The package size of the LS with accessories has a lower CG, probably a lower weight, and smaller overall dimensions than a AJV8 SC with accessories.

 

Late 80's and early 90's cars like an Oldsmobile Cutlass Calais and Buick Regal as I am in the States. Then I have read about all the problems with engines like the Northstar V8 and the 4cyl Chevy turbos. That's unreliable. We don't melt pistons in the Jaguar sphere.

Me merely reading about these things doesn't make any less true. Like the quote in Tommy Boy goes - "I can get a good look at a T-Bone by sticking my head up a bull's *** but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it."

Chevy's New 1.5L Engines Are Melting Themselves | Shifting Lanes


That remains to be seen and I completely disagree. Maybe an older Camaro hotrodded with one of these engines might be worth something but not an XK or any other European GT vehicle. Tell us why guys are restoring E Types to factory specs instead of just installing an LS?

In 2040 if I were to come across a mint original 2000 XK8 and a Chevuar with even 750 hp I would buy the former. You can always lump a car but once you hack the electronics and who knows what else then it's very hard to go back.


It was a factory part with less-than-expected service life that won't result in a ruined engine or even leaving you stranded IF it's taken care of. It is more of a maintenance issue than an unreliability one. If that's all you paid for the car then you got a steal and should consider yourself lucky.

You clearly have a very low opinion of these cars. So why did you buy one? Why are you even on a Jaguar forum? I would never purchase anything I deem low quality and/or unreliable - like GM; even though I do like the styling of some cars such as the C6 Corvette and the older Malibu sedans. What's with the expert sarcasm? What did I say about the tensioners and A drums that is incorrect?


Yeah, parts for premium cars usually cost premium money. You think anyone that is driving a high end marque out of warranty and maintaining it properly has the same running costs as an econobox? You have a six car garage and you're concerned about repair costs and "money pits?"

 

What about those LS swapped jaguars, well they provide much more power, lighter weight, a proven history of longer miles before engine is worn out, and they are an inexpensive car to maintain. For these model Jaguars the reality is they are not increasing in value but rather decreasing. That is the dilemma, when your engine is worn out what do you do? You could just sell if for not a lot of dollars. You could get a new Jaguar engine/transmission. You could replace it with a GM LS V8 engine.

Jaguar owners are the most stuck up bunch that I have met in all my years of being a car guy. Most other car owners are more open minded and not so polarized about making any modifications and respect everyone's personal desire. Instead many Jaguar owners try to throw words of hate, etc. That is evident in how they label a car with an engine different that their Jaguar, they use the derogatory term "lump". That alone should give a clue how non open minded many are. I have seen that both online and real life and that is just sad and ignorant. Changing an engine is and "engine swap" and most people today do so as a "restomod" where they do the engine swap with a modern powerplant and upgrade the other missing things to bring the car to as good or better performance than what you can buy new today. Nobody uses the term "lump" other than Jaguar owners without an open mind.

Everyone whom owns one should respect that everyone has the right to do what they want and have an open mind. I have built many cars and done both stock high performance and restomod engine swaps. I am open to both as that is a personal choice. I have built performance Datsun 240Z cars and own several. Two are restored with stock bodies but with many upgrades for power, subtle improvements on body welds, etc. and both have high performance engines using the stock inline 6 engine. I could have went with an LS but I wanted to keep the drivetrain in those with the stock engine but I had to spend about $18K and $20K to provide the power I wanted just on the engine/transmission. Both have very good coil over suspension, big brakes, and other performance enhancements but the appearance is more stock. The nice thing is that the Datsun 240Z has increased more than 12 times its original price and even when you deviate from stock it does not degrade the value as people whom love the 240Z want the style and there are equal amount of people that will pay big dollars for stock, stock highly customized, and restomod/custom.

My 3rd 240Z is radically customized and while I am keeping the powerplant Nissan it is not the same engine, but instead an RB34 Nissan Skyline engine/transmission. That engine/transmission is $40K by itself. My Jaguar 3.8s is my daily driver and has the 5.3 liter LS1 aluminum block GM V8.

What I can tell you is that the modern LS V8 is one of the most reliable powerful and lightweight engines I have driven. I own a fleet of over 2 dozen vehicles driven hard, not always serviced regularly yet they drive 250,000 miles without breaking down. I end up putting new engines about 250,000 to 275,000 even though we could get over 300,000 miles but for work they cannot breakdown. I know friends with LS engines and they are getting well over 300,000 miles but those are personal cars like everyone here whom does do service religiously, etc. My Jaguar has over 100,000 miles since I finished it 3 years ago, yes I drive over 30,000 miles a year and it has been super reliable. Thus from first hand experience I can tell you that these engines last a darn long time and are powerful and provide good mileage.

When you put a modern LS engine there will always be people whom desire that because you have done the hard work of getting it fitted, etc. When they eventually wear out, it is an affordable and easy to replace the LS with a new one or rebuild it for much less than the Jaguar engine. Thus the resale value will be stronger than a stock Jaguar in my opinion. There is nothing wrong with keeping your Jaguar engine and rebuilding it or getting a new one but when your engine is worn out the value of these model Jaguars is less than the cost of rebuilding it in a factory quality or new replacement engine in many cases so an LS might be something to consider. For my Jaguar it is also not a Jaguar that is really in demand but they have increased beyond their original price but sedans in general are not the big money cars as far as collectability. I have had a number of offers to buy my car for over $70K and while that sounds tempting I did not sell it because it was not easy to do my engine swap so I now understand why the last couple of years that restomods are selling for more money than numbers matching cars.

On these later model Jaguars, Andrew with Jaguar Specialties provides a great option to consider because he has done all of the engineering for you. His kit provides all of the proven items needed to do a clean installation where the car drives like it came from the factory with all of the stock instrumentation working with the new powerplant and it smog legal. That is huge! I had to do all of that myself and with the help of many great performance shops I fortunately already done work with as my era Jaguar does not have the fortunate situation you folks do with Jaguar Specialties.

Everyone should just do what they want and respect each others differing opinions. Yes I have the resources like UNGN but for me I love the Jaguar style that my car provides but I need a daily driver that I can drive hundreds of thousands of miles reliably and for that goal the LS has worked out to be perfect for me. I have the Jaguar I want, it is faster than most other new performance sedans with 0-60 in 3.9 to 4.05 seconds, the powerband is smooth, it is very reliable, handles well, and has all of the modern luxuries from rear view camera, AC, power steering, leather, electric seats, blue-tooth/wifi, LED lighting, and much more, For others they may be determined to keep it stock and that is great but everyone has their own opinion and there is no right way but an LS is a good option to consider when your engine is worn out....

 

primaz,

My first new car was a 1974 Datsun 260Z. I kept it for 13 years and put nearly 200,000 miles on it before I was finally willing to sell it to the son of a work colleague of mine at the time. I knew almost nothing about DIY automotive service and repairs when I purchased it, and it became the car that gradually taught me how to DIY. If I could have it back today in showroom condition, I would grab it in a heartbeat....

Let's see some photos of your various 240Zs. I would like to do some reminiscing about my beloved Z....

 

So this notion of converted Jags and their value has been debated for as long as anyone can remember. Sometimes the conversation is based on actual data, sometimes opinion, and sometimes just a finger in the air. The reality is that although converted cars don't appeal to everyone and certainly not every Jag enthusiast, there has always been a strong market for cars done well. The obvious low budget garbage that floats through Ebay occasionally is worth what you would expect- nothing. But cars that have been converted well, with a reasonable budget, and a modern fuel injected drivetrain have always seemed to bring good money. While we don't build cars to sell here, occasionally one of my own cars does hit the block and they all seem to find a good home for decent money.

On the subject of XK8-LS cars, this conversion is only a few years old now (say 5-ish) so few of them have changed hands past the original owners who did the LS install. But the few that have sold consistently have brought several times what their standard drivetrain counterparts would bring on the market. Here are a few recent data points for you- all were 100k-125k mile cars done using our LS-XK8 kit by shops or customers:.

Sept 2018- 1999 XK8 convert with 5.3 LS and 4L60E; silver car-, showed well, body kit and chrome wheels, Sold by a classic car dealer in North Carolina for $16.5k (word through the grapevine)



June 2018- 1997 XK8 convert with 5.3 LS and 4L60E; nice car, very good paint and interior, ran and drove well and was built by a shop in Atlanta that has done several of these already (including an LS1-6 speed manual XK8 in their shop now). Sold for $17k via Ebay

Feb 2016- 1997 XK8 convert with 2002 Trans Am LS1 and 4L60E; blue- very good original paint/top/interior; custom wheels, built by one of our earliest XK8-LS kit customers. (an individual, not a shop). Ran and drove well- nice car to just fill up and go. Sold via Ebay for $12.75k



Although not a huge data sample, it's data nonetheless. And although not many of our customers do conversions to resell, you can see that the converted cars do sell for good money, easily 2-3 times or more of the standard versions. People love this body but are scared to death of the drivetrain. And the care/maintenance/repair of these cars with the stock engine/transmission remains high (for the average person- not a forum goer) despite the bargain basement value of the cars. That coupled with the huge popularity of the LS engines makes for a good match. That's the ticket.

And just to be sure no one walks away thinking only the LS powered XK8's have the pull for buyers, does everyone remember the 1975 LS1 powered XJ6C coupe that was sold by one of our customers back in June 2017?? That car was also built using one of our kit and parts and brought $103k on Bring-A-Trailer, which is 3-4 times what the nicest stock XJ6C would sell for. Maybe the LS was the key. What I find most interesting about that sale isn't necessarily the winning bid but the fact that their were 2 or 3 other bidders up over $70k who walked away unhappy and without a car. Even if this car were an anomaly, a price at half of what it sold for would still be pretty impressive

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1975-jaguar-xj-coupe/



This post is not put here to convince anyone to do anything but just to give real info on LS-Jag opinions/values in the real world.

Thanks

Andrew
Jaguar Specialties

 

bottom line - there is no right/wrong answer - it is all left to personal preference and what one feels reasonably comfortable shelling out from a cost perspective. When my tensioners ate themselves and tanked my engine - I opted for rebuild of the OEM vice an LS1 swap but it was nice to know there are alternatives out there

 

May I ask what the rebuild cost? Did you have an independent Jaguar shop do it?

 

AJ - rebuild was done by local indie for $4800 with a 2yr warranty. She had a little over 170K on the clock when the Gen 1 tensioners finally crapped out. I had not changed them prior as I had been advised they had been replaced in the past.

 

That's more or less what I figured. Not bad, especially considering the two year warranty.

 

Pretty good on both fronts! I've always wondered about the life of tensioner-swapped cars would have been had the job not been done. 170k is a pretty healthy ceiling, and $4800 is pretty solid for a rebuild. Just a clarification--was the original engine rebuilt, or was a rebuilt used engine swapped in?

 

I did have them replace the engine mounts and a few other tired components I hadn't gotten around to replacing (I had the parts - so just labor charge). overall no, not bad at all and the better half was on board with the repairs - so that was even a bonus

Original engine was rebuilt and I did have a few forum members that offered to sell working replacements if I wanted to go that route

 

You are talking about crap cars that no enthusiast would ever buy. The logic that "LS motors are bad because motors in front wheel drive crap boxes are bad" is faulty

A Series 1 or 2 E-type, its easier to restore them back to stock and its a lot of work to install a V8, but I can see a killer Series 3 with a built LS motor bringing more money than a stock restored one. Not all E-types are created equal. A very close friend has a Series 2 Coupe that is all original unrestored 40K miles. He loves driving it around town, but its not something you could jump in and drive across the country like a LS powered Series 3. He would be a buyer of a nicely done LS swapped E-type with AC cruise and a 6 speed. A GT car you have to trailer to your destination is not a GT car.

A guy whose only experience with GM cars is Late 80's early 90's fwd crap boxes would not be the target demographic of an LS swapped XK8. Sorry. Someone who bought a Lincoln LSC or a Thunderbird SC or an SS Impala during those years would be closer to the mark.


I have a realistic opinion, based on experience, not based on key words I google. Jags are easy to work on (with the right tools) and drive and look great, but the plastic and the planned obsolescence can get tedious. It's pretty obvious that 1990's Jaguars were a government jobs program designed to transfer wealth from the rich to the working poor. The front wheel bearing is unquestionably designed to eventually fail (there is no seal or even a discourager to prevent water ingestion) where the local mechanic (with a 20 ton press and the proper socket) would replace them for about $500 Labor. The same wheel bearing on a GM would last twice as long and repair be less than $100 Labor with no special tools required. If GM designed a front wheel bearing like a '90's Jag, there would a pitchfork and torch march on Detroit and they would be dragging bean-counters out of office buildings. Since Jag people generally don't do their own work, they think they are "special" paying more to fix stuff. They're "special" for thinking that, alright.

If they were premium parts, that would be one thing. They are cheap, brittle plastic. The Aftermarket Aluminum thermostat towers are a work of art compared to the cheap plastic factory piece.. and they are less money than the cheap plastic factory piece. I'm not that concerned about repair costs, but my wife is, so long term, a future of $400 cheap plastic cam sensors is not in my future.

 

@Ungn I have to admit that I laughed when reading that. The guy shilling for GM is accusing Jaguar of PO. Those crap boxes I mentioned were the epitome of planned obsolescence. They were 100k mile disposable cars. Once they reached that mileage it was just one random problem after another.

Here, let's do this. This is one site that tracks trouble areas and reliability of cars. We will juxtapose cars of the same class and more or less the same model year, i.e compare apples to apples. The closest competitor to the XJ8 that GM had then was the Cadillac DeVille.

DeVille - 4,100+ reports

https://repairpal.com/cadillac-deville-1998/problems

XJ - 101 reports. Of which 61 are a broken cup holder and 25 are tensioner related.

https://repairpal.com/jaguar-xj8-1998/problems

 

Same pattern.

https://repairpal.com/cadillac-catera-2001/problems

https://repairpal.com/jaguar-x-type-2002/problems