Super Chillers for XKR
#1
01-31-2013 | 11:26 AM
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From: Salem, OR
Super Chillers for XKR
Came across an interesting article on in the March issue of GM High Tech page 76 on an intercooler super chiller by RX Performance Products. This universal kit costs about $1K. Much cheaper is Killer Chiller the Active Intercooler solution for OEM and after maket intercooler systems..
The concept is to use the auto's AC system to chill intercooler coolant. Sounds flakey doesn't it? Nevertheless, I think this is a subject worthy of further monitoring and research.
The concept is to use the auto's AC system to chill intercooler coolant. Sounds flakey doesn't it? Nevertheless, I think this is a subject worthy of further monitoring and research.
#2
01-31-2013 | 11:37 AM
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From: Sunny Southport UK
#3
02-10-2013 | 12:40 PM
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From: Florida
Here is a video of the RX SuperChiller in use with a 700 hp Maggie 5th gen camaro.
Watch it a few times to look at all the data...ambient air temp, IAT temps (always app 10*F above the intercooler coolant temp) and the intercooler coolant temp. The car is just getting warmed up in the begining, and then a 40 second WOT run.
There are hundreds of these in use all over the worls on any ligquid to air intercooled application and the military testing as well to save on the turbo diesel high rate of engine failures in the desert heat.
The reason the price is higher than a killer chiller is it takes this concept to a much more robust solution with features such as a "comprtition mode" that shuts off the cabin AC so no moisture is being removed to drip on a road race or drag track. It also directs the entire cooling to the Super Chiller HE. NO condensation drips if in competition mode.
The Killer chiller was one of the first and works well, but very basic.
In low humidity climates the efficiency is best, the video is in FL high humidity.
The hotter the ambient temp the better they work also. A 50/50 antifreeze mix is critical or you will freeze the coolant. Also, the RX system automatically defaults to the stock HE if the AC compressor fails or is turned off as a safety feature (bypasses it when in use so your not fighting ambient air temps as the coolant is usually still in the 50-60*F range exiting the intercooler).
Avg HP gains with no tuning on a stock FI vehicle is around 30 RWHP with the denser air charge. Depending on the tuning and the build you can be more agressive and see 40-80 rwhp plus (depending on how much boost, etc.).
Anyone with technical questions ask in detail and I can answer them for most any application, and anyone wanting to lend their ride for an installation willing to document all with before and after dyno/track testing and the complete installation let me know (were between Tampa & Sarasota).
Watch it a few times to look at all the data...ambient air temp, IAT temps (always app 10*F above the intercooler coolant temp) and the intercooler coolant temp. The car is just getting warmed up in the begining, and then a 40 second WOT run.
There are hundreds of these in use all over the worls on any ligquid to air intercooled application and the military testing as well to save on the turbo diesel high rate of engine failures in the desert heat.
The reason the price is higher than a killer chiller is it takes this concept to a much more robust solution with features such as a "comprtition mode" that shuts off the cabin AC so no moisture is being removed to drip on a road race or drag track. It also directs the entire cooling to the Super Chiller HE. NO condensation drips if in competition mode.
The Killer chiller was one of the first and works well, but very basic.
In low humidity climates the efficiency is best, the video is in FL high humidity.
The hotter the ambient temp the better they work also. A 50/50 antifreeze mix is critical or you will freeze the coolant. Also, the RX system automatically defaults to the stock HE if the AC compressor fails or is turned off as a safety feature (bypasses it when in use so your not fighting ambient air temps as the coolant is usually still in the 50-60*F range exiting the intercooler).
Avg HP gains with no tuning on a stock FI vehicle is around 30 RWHP with the denser air charge. Depending on the tuning and the build you can be more agressive and see 40-80 rwhp plus (depending on how much boost, etc.).
Anyone with technical questions ask in detail and I can answer them for most any application, and anyone wanting to lend their ride for an installation willing to document all with before and after dyno/track testing and the complete installation let me know (were between Tampa & Sarasota).
#5
02-12-2013 | 12:42 PM
I took the plunge!
I just bought a SuperChiller from Rx Performance and they have offered to install it for free so they can take photos and write step by step instructions. I will be upgrading my s/c over the next few weeks; bought a larger diameter lower pulley and am having the s/c ported by Eurotoys and will also be installing their larger intercooler radiator and high performance pump. As soon as all this is done, I'll be driving down to St. Pete, FL for a few days R&R while the guys at Rx Performance install their SuperChiller. This will likely be in April so stay tuned to this thread for a blow by blow (no pun intended).
Mark
Mark
#6
02-12-2013 | 12:54 PM
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Hi Mark,
You might want to try to give your intercooler back to ET, its totally unsuited as its way to thick, hindering also airflow onto the a/c condenser and also your engine radiator. This will save you some serious money that would be totaly misspent on this unit.
Having the current intercooler radiator connected will also work counterproductive, the a/c is trying to bring the coolant temp to lower than ambient, yet the airflow will try to bring it up again.
Best would be to have a bypass system, so when the a/c is working the coolant flow should not pass the intercooler radiator. On top of that also include a water tank so you can have a buffer created for longer power runs. This way you also have a back system if the a/c isnt working for whatever reason/ or if the coolant temp would go to above ambient temps again after some power runs, then the default flow should be again thru the radiator. You could do a compromise as jgaxkr has done, so remove the intercooler radiator completely. That has a major advantage that you get much better airflow over the condonser.
Next would be to get the right size coolant pump.
You might want to try to give your intercooler back to ET, its totally unsuited as its way to thick, hindering also airflow onto the a/c condenser and also your engine radiator. This will save you some serious money that would be totaly misspent on this unit.
Having the current intercooler radiator connected will also work counterproductive, the a/c is trying to bring the coolant temp to lower than ambient, yet the airflow will try to bring it up again.
Best would be to have a bypass system, so when the a/c is working the coolant flow should not pass the intercooler radiator. On top of that also include a water tank so you can have a buffer created for longer power runs. This way you also have a back system if the a/c isnt working for whatever reason/ or if the coolant temp would go to above ambient temps again after some power runs, then the default flow should be again thru the radiator. You could do a compromise as jgaxkr has done, so remove the intercooler radiator completely. That has a major advantage that you get much better airflow over the condonser.
Next would be to get the right size coolant pump.
#7
02-12-2013 | 01:57 PM
Thanks for the input avos, you've given me a lot to think about but now I have a question. First, however, what I had in mind was a two-step system. That is, the intercooler radiator would bring the air temp down to ambient conditions and then the SuperChiller would reduce the air temp further (after compression by the s/c) to reduce the potential for pre-detonation. I live in an area of Texas where average daytime temperatures in the summer time are 105F to 115F. With the ambient temperatures that high, I really wanted something to get my intake air temperatures down. Is that not what this system does? I am not an expert on s/c because my XKR is the only car I've ever had with a s/c so I may well be misunderstanding something.
Mark
Mark
Last edited by mjlaris; 02-13-2013 at 01:44 AM.
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#8
02-12-2013 | 02:27 PM
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SC2150 should know what I am talking about, so you could ask them as well on what they can do, and what they would recommend (nice to share here as well).
2 stage is perfect, as long as you are able to bypass the intercooler radiator as mentioned once the a/c isn't able to keep the coolant below ambient. Its simple, when it is hot outside and you are cruising (so not wot), the ambient air will be heating up the coolant via the radiator which the a/c tries to keep down, not a good thing.
The a/c can only handle a small amount of btu, but as you are not running at wot all the time, you can use the time between runs to cool down as much coolant as possible. so a 2 gallon tank will then hold lots of reserve to run at wot for a long period. The smaller the coolant amount the shorter you can benefit form the cooled coolant.
So in short, you want to have the coolant as cool as possible and for as long as possible (via adding a tank to add more coolant).
Hope this helps,
2 stage is perfect, as long as you are able to bypass the intercooler radiator as mentioned once the a/c isn't able to keep the coolant below ambient. Its simple, when it is hot outside and you are cruising (so not wot), the ambient air will be heating up the coolant via the radiator which the a/c tries to keep down, not a good thing.
The a/c can only handle a small amount of btu, but as you are not running at wot all the time, you can use the time between runs to cool down as much coolant as possible. so a 2 gallon tank will then hold lots of reserve to run at wot for a long period. The smaller the coolant amount the shorter you can benefit form the cooled coolant.
So in short, you want to have the coolant as cool as possible and for as long as possible (via adding a tank to add more coolant).
Hope this helps,
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mjlaris (02-12-2013)
#9
02-12-2013 | 03:42 PM
Thanks avos, I believe I understand and will discuss with the guys at Rx Performance and will post to this thread. The idea here is to develop a solution for our XKRs using the SupperChiller design. The more input we get from people who really know what they're talking about, like you, the better this solution will be for all of us. Thanks,
Mark
Mark
#10
02-13-2013 | 01:19 AM
I am really interested in doing something like this on my own XKR, both of my pulleys are done, it does have a slightly thicker cooler, but I also have a larger radiator with bigger fans but I am still worried about too much heat, this is why I have split my system and fitted another tank...... But I want more cooling.... I modified my pistons so I don't particularly want to melt them...
#11
02-13-2013 | 10:26 AM
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From: Florida
AVOS is right on the money.
We see many of the oversized HE's doing just that....restricting airflow to the condensor. Excellent point.
The system bypasses the HE any time the AC compressor is engaged with a 4 way bypass valve so were not fighting the ambient air temps as the coolant temp is usually still 50-60*F AFTER it exits the intercooler and has done the cooling. Then if the comp fails, or the AC is turned off, it autmatically reverts to the HE using ambient air temps to cool.
We also include standard the competition mode that with the flip of a cabin mounted switch shuts off the freon flow to the cabin so no moisture is being removed to drip as water on the drag strip or road race track, and it also uses all the cooling of the system for the RX Super Chiller.
For a map to us, www.RevXtreme.com (hope this isn't a rule violation...if it is let me know.
Again, AVOS I am impressed with your understanding of all this......we also make the only oil separting crankcase evacuation system for most modern gasoline cars & light trucks that separates and traps ALL oil from ingestion while still providing proper evacuation during both boost and non boost operation. Any oil in the intake air charge will cause some detonation as well as contaminating the air fuel mixture so the burn is not as complete and reduces the amount of usable octaine the fuel contains.
A little backgorund on myself:
Machinest and engineer by trade 35 years ago.
building race and performance engines of all types for over 38 years.
Froced induction builds since the early-mid 70's (melted alot of pistons in the days before intercoolers and learning how much timing and how to jet for FI)
Design and manufacture performance parts for the race & modern muscle car market for years.
Have owned, raced, managed drag teams professionally for years with multiple Divisonal, National, and World Championships in both NHRA & IHRA in several classes (not road race achivements though). Latest of drivers/team currently were the NHRA World in Super Gas 2011, and several National wins in SC & SS 2012.
XKRacer....even the best forged pistons can melt or soften and pinch a ringland in seconds if enough detonation is present.....but far stroner than stock for sure.
Thx!
We see many of the oversized HE's doing just that....restricting airflow to the condensor. Excellent point.
The system bypasses the HE any time the AC compressor is engaged with a 4 way bypass valve so were not fighting the ambient air temps as the coolant temp is usually still 50-60*F AFTER it exits the intercooler and has done the cooling. Then if the comp fails, or the AC is turned off, it autmatically reverts to the HE using ambient air temps to cool.
We also include standard the competition mode that with the flip of a cabin mounted switch shuts off the freon flow to the cabin so no moisture is being removed to drip as water on the drag strip or road race track, and it also uses all the cooling of the system for the RX Super Chiller.
For a map to us, www.RevXtreme.com (hope this isn't a rule violation...if it is let me know.
Again, AVOS I am impressed with your understanding of all this......we also make the only oil separting crankcase evacuation system for most modern gasoline cars & light trucks that separates and traps ALL oil from ingestion while still providing proper evacuation during both boost and non boost operation. Any oil in the intake air charge will cause some detonation as well as contaminating the air fuel mixture so the burn is not as complete and reduces the amount of usable octaine the fuel contains.
A little backgorund on myself:
Machinest and engineer by trade 35 years ago.
building race and performance engines of all types for over 38 years.
Froced induction builds since the early-mid 70's (melted alot of pistons in the days before intercoolers and learning how much timing and how to jet for FI)
Design and manufacture performance parts for the race & modern muscle car market for years.
Have owned, raced, managed drag teams professionally for years with multiple Divisonal, National, and World Championships in both NHRA & IHRA in several classes (not road race achivements though). Latest of drivers/team currently were the NHRA World in Super Gas 2011, and several National wins in SC & SS 2012.
XKRacer....even the best forged pistons can melt or soften and pinch a ringland in seconds if enough detonation is present.....but far stroner than stock for sure.
Thx!
#12
02-13-2013 | 11:25 AM
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I'd be interested in the oil separator.
Having just taken the intercooler apart and cleaned out years of oil mist, I'd rather not fill them with that stuff again if there is a way to avoid it.
I see a single and dual check valve catch can on your website in the GM section, is that what you are referring to?
Having just taken the intercooler apart and cleaned out years of oil mist, I'd rather not fill them with that stuff again if there is a way to avoid it.
I see a single and dual check valve catch can on your website in the GM section, is that what you are referring to?
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#13
02-13-2013 | 04:06 PM
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From: Florida
The Jag version will be up when we do this chiller install, but for a top mount positive displacement blower the single valve up to 10# boost, over get the Monster dual valve.
Just call direct and they will put it together. Ask for both Long "L" and Long "Z" brackets.
The build up on the rotors causes them to become out of balance and wear bearings prematurely also.
Here are some pics of a blower after 16k miles with the RX can:
and an intercooler w/out one for 15k miles:
And with the DI engines having no fuel passing the intake valves, the coking issue is horrible. Here are pictures of DI intake valves in as little as 8k miles they have lost app 20% of the volumetric efficiency:
vs the same 3.6L GM v6 with port injection w/140k miles on it:
Huge issue w/ALL direct injection engines...and Lexus v8 has a partial port injection version and it isn't helpping all the much.
Just call direct and they will put it together. Ask for both Long "L" and Long "Z" brackets.
The build up on the rotors causes them to become out of balance and wear bearings prematurely also.
Here are some pics of a blower after 16k miles with the RX can:
and an intercooler w/out one for 15k miles:
And with the DI engines having no fuel passing the intake valves, the coking issue is horrible. Here are pictures of DI intake valves in as little as 8k miles they have lost app 20% of the volumetric efficiency:
vs the same 3.6L GM v6 with port injection w/140k miles on it:
Huge issue w/ALL direct injection engines...and Lexus v8 has a partial port injection version and it isn't helpping all the much.
#15
02-13-2013 | 11:40 PM
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From: Europe
@SC2150,
Good to hear you have included the valves, as this is how I would have made a system which I though about as found it to be lacking with 'other' chiller systems. Am looking forward to the installation on Marks car.
Might be also interested in the oil catch can, do you have the dimensions of the monster unit?
Good to hear you have included the valves, as this is how I would have made a system which I though about as found it to be lacking with 'other' chiller systems. Am looking forward to the installation on Marks car.
Might be also interested in the oil catch can, do you have the dimensions of the monster unit?
#16
02-14-2013 | 10:36 AM
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From: Florida
Monster can is bulky. 4" diameter and 7.5" tall. Can be mounted anywhere there is room, but it is used in buiulds to 1000 plus WHP and eliminates the oil issues.
- (ALL cans, even a beer can w/2 fittings popped in will catch some oil due to condensation, but most let as much or more through into the intake air charge as they catch:
As for cans, here are the most common you will see and a detailed description on how they work, (and dont work).
We'll start with some of most common ebay/made in china ineffective cans that are really no more than a "empty beer can":
This one is very common and is generally bought from ebay, but several company also brand it. Comes with fittings, a universal braket, sight tube to see when it needs to emptied:
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And the inside......notice not only is it completely an empty can, but the fittings are just punched in with metal filings hanging:
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This is another Ebay/China cheapo. Looks nice, ends are milled from billet and the main body extruded aluminum. This can is very common and is seen in many colors and with over 20 companies branding it as "their own design". Search on ebay to see for yourself:
And as you can see, allthough it is a good size, and looks nice, just an empty can again. The majority of all vapors enter and do a quick U turn and exit:
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So again, no different than an empty "jumbo" beer can.
And now to another variation of ebay/china. Sight windows and can be had in several colors or a carbon fiber wrap:
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Now the inside:
Bonded together with plastic resin...this insulates it greatly reducing the ability to condense oil vapors....and since it relies on the plastic to seal it this one had a good sized vacuum leak where it didnt get coated, and time will tell if this resin delaminates over time from the fuel/oil vapors. It also has what the instructions describe as a "Robber Strip".....not sure what that is:
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Notice, if they would have designed it so the inlet tube protruded through the screen, it would actually have a bit better effectiveness, but since it terminates in the top the majority of the vapors just do a quick U turn back out.
Now on to one made in the USA, quality of the machining is top notch, excellent appearance, solid bracket. You will see dozens of variations of this with the appearance slightly different on the top and some cary very well known brands:
Now look closely at the internal design. There is no specified inlet or outlet, and when you unscrew it you see the vapors enter through one fitting, travel through coalscing media (so far so good) but it just U turns into the outlet side into more coalscing material which acts the same way as taking a wet wash cloth and holding it to your mouth and sucking on it...the liquid pull right through. So even though it looks awesome, and the machining is top notch, since it is so small the flow never slows enough to allow most droplets to fall out of suspension so they suck right into the other side and out the outlet.
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A can has to be large enough so the velocity, or the flow speed through the can slows enough for the condensed droplets to fall out of suspension and not carried through (take a straw and drip a small amount of water in a saucer, suck on the straw and it will draw the liquid up completely...similar to the dentist suction tube, now take a piece of garden hose and try the same....you wont get any, or almost no liquid due to the internal volumn of the hose/straw/container used as an oil separator. 
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- 01-30-2013, 10:47 AM#11
SponsorJoin DateSep 2007LocationBradenton, FLPosts2,082Post Thanks / Like
Likes (Given)0Likes (Received)2Dislikes (Given)0Dislikes (Received)2Let me add in the home air compressor separators many use:
Click here to view the original image of 640x480px and 95KB.
These will catch oil, but will saturate in a few hundred miles allowing all oil to pull through after it reaches saturation. As this one shows, this company adds a hose to the drain to return the contaminated oil to the crankcase reintroducing the damaging combustion byproducts into the engine oil accelerating wear and damage. All in not understanding all the purposes and functions of todays PCV systems.
Now on to the ones that work. Starting with the one below (has several others that brand this unit). As you can see, the oil enters the top, passes through a small chamber with coalescing material that does a good job of separating the oil and as the flow pulls through, the larger droplets fall into the bottom for collection and only the smallesr ones get pulled through. Mainly because the outlet is only 1" from the droplets dripping out of the chamber as the speed of the flow will pull a small amount through. This is a very good functioning can and allows only 20% or so of pull through and is one we endorse as worth using on most NA applications, but any kind of FI or big cube build and it will allow even more pull through. Nice looking, durable, and functional for the reasons listed:
Click here to view the original image of 640x480px and 116KB.
On to the next 2 that are excellent in function and quality. The Elite and the AMW. Both are slightly different in appearance, but both use the same basic very effective design internally. Even though from the outside they may look similar to the one with so many brands that does not work well, these work excellent:
First the Elite:
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Look above closeley. The coalescing chamber is quite large and is very effective in trapping the oil from suspension and all but the smallest drops fall to the bottom where they are trapped to drain later. The outlet barb is app 2" from the bottom of the coalscing chamber so less chane for pull through. Great for NA and mild top mount SC applications. Excellent can we also endorse.
The AMW:
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A bit different in appearance, but using the same internal principal of the Elite.....an excellent can that we also endorse.
These last 3 I want to point out are direct competitors of RX but are excellent (some of the ONLY ones worth purchasing out of the hundreds to choose from) and have our endorsement. Well worth buying and installing to prevent the issues described throughout this thread.
Now the RX can. Several things in this design are unlike any other on the market. The distance the oil laden fumes travel from entering, through 3 different chambers which each have a function, is over 9" so pull through from droplets falling to the bottom for collection is near impossible. It also is nearly 1 qt of internal volume (standard can, Monster is nearly 2 quarts) so the velocity, or speed of the flow can slow enough for even the smallest of droplets to fall out of suspension:
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Follow the pictures below of a disected RX can. The vapors first enter the top center and travel down the dispersion tube that distributes the vapors evenly into the large coalescing chamber where 90% plus of the oil is separated from the vapors and can drop into the collection and condensing chamber. This uses the temprature differential to condense any oil still suspended into large enough drops that then collect on the outer cooling surface and drop to the bottom for collection. Then the vapors have to travel past a disc baffel into the separate outlet chamber where they have one final cooling step to allow any trace oil to condense befor exiting through a flow controlling checkvalve that prevents any back flow at WOT when intake vacuum is at its lowest level and also prevents the vapors from flowing through to fast.
The oil laden vapors at no time mix with crankcase vapors already cleaned as they exit. Every other design has points where the dirty, and cleaned vapors mingle so there is no way to separate 100% of the oil as some of the entering vapors are always mixing with the exiting vapors.
Click here to view the original image of 639x484px and 37KB.
Click here to view the original image of 639x484px and 37KB.
Now the Saikou Micchi is also a very effective functioning can but I dont have time to post all out there, but anyone that has visited in person has seen the examples of both. It cathces probably 90% plus in most applications.
Now,The RX dual valve (Monster can over 10# boost) is the ONLY can system on the market currently that provides proper crankcase evac and oil separation in both boost and non-boost operation. Every other application is only functional during non-boost with a turbo or centri blower (any system that pressurizes the intake manifold):
All we source, do a several hundred mile drive with a clear glass inline checkvalve installed between the can and the intake manifold vacuum barb and over this same drive route, with the same car (we know its consumption), and then judge the amount that pulled through and was caught in the clear glass filter. With the average empty/ebay/china can the filter is saturated in 50-100 miles beyound capacity showing 50-80% plus of the oil travels right through into the intake air charge.
The poor designed nice looking ones work a bit better, but still pull through 30% plus where the ones we endorse allow less than 10% pull through to under 5% which is excellent in eliminating most of the issues caused by oil ingestion into the intake air charge.
And more specific question, ask & I'll do my best to answer each accurately.
Top pics? Elite, AMW, Saikou Micchi and RX. There are a few other we have seen advertised that look like they will also be excellent in function, but we have yet to purchase, test, and dissect.
Also, the RX dual valve (Monster can for over 10# boost) is the ONLY catchcan system on the market that provides proper crankcase evacuation during both boost and non-boost operation. Every other one provides no oil separation/proper evacuation during boost:
Click here to view the original image of 640x480px and 61KB.
www.RevXtreme.com 941-721-1826
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Panthro (10-17-2015)
#18
02-14-2013 | 10:51 AM
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From: Limousin, France
Are we into a perpetual motion machine here ?
The power to drive the a/c compressor comes from the engine and there will be big losses due to mechanical and thermal inefficiencies.
To quote a parody of the Laws of Thermodynamics
First: You can't win.
Second: You can't break even, except on a very cold day.
Third: It doesn't get that cold.
In other words any increased power output from cooler air getting into the engine will be more than eaten up by the work done cooling that air.
The power to drive the a/c compressor comes from the engine and there will be big losses due to mechanical and thermal inefficiencies.
To quote a parody of the Laws of Thermodynamics
First: You can't win.
Second: You can't break even, except on a very cold day.
Third: It doesn't get that cold.
In other words any increased power output from cooler air getting into the engine will be more than eaten up by the work done cooling that air.
#19
02-14-2013 | 01:14 PM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 25
Likes: 4
From: Florida
Are we into a perpetual motion machine here ?
The power to drive the a/c compressor comes from the engine and there will be big losses due to mechanical and thermal inefficiencies.
To quote a parody of the Laws of Thermodynamics
First: You can't win.
Second: You can't break even, except on a very cold day.
Third: It doesn't get that cold.
In other words any increased power output from cooler air getting into the engine will be more than eaten up by the work done cooling that air.
The power to drive the a/c compressor comes from the engine and there will be big losses due to mechanical and thermal inefficiencies.
To quote a parody of the Laws of Thermodynamics
First: You can't win.
Second: You can't break even, except on a very cold day.
Third: It doesn't get that cold.
In other words any increased power output from cooler air getting into the engine will be more than eaten up by the work done cooling that air.
LOL! No disrespect intended.....but have been doing this for over 38 years.
Use the examples in this thread. A new Camaro ZL1 run on the dyno with a baseline with AC off using the factory HE and then the AC/Chiller on makes between 20-30 RWHP more with the chiller on.
I'll also dig up others running at the dragstrip and post for further documentation.
With hundreds using them in drag and road race applications all over the world seeing the same results this is hard to debate using the reson you gave. Just have an open mind and research all this to see for your self.