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Morning Dale.
Can't believe this thread is two years old, but long story short:-no.
I have a drum of LT71141, the OEM filter kit (sourced under LandRover part #s as they're cheaper) and the Transgo valve waiting to go.
My initial concern was getting the hose out that crosses over the top of the transmission (see Pete Mantell's picture above), but in practice it's visible from the top so it shouldn't be the issue I first expected it to be. I've currently got the rear suspension in pieces (now just waiting for the springs to come back fron sandblasting) then I'll be taking this on, along with the remaining original hoses around the heater pump.
For the lines, there are two options:
1) Have the old lines rebuilt. I like BobRoy's suggestion as this way will outlast me. I've found a local marine shop that can do this.
2) Replace with new. They are now available from Heritage, although they're pretty expensive...
If you do elect to replace, then note phanc's warning re the connections to the cooler in the radiator. I was lucky, but RD ran into some pain. The most awkward part looks to be getting at the line retainers down the side of the trans (again, see Pete Mantell's pic).
Morning Dale.
Can't believe this thread is two years old, but long story short:-no.
I have a drum of LT71141, the OEM filter kit (sourced under LandRover part #s as they're cheaper) and the Transgo valve waiting to go.
My initial concern was getting the hose out that crosses over the top of the transmission (see Pete Mantell's picture above), but in practice it's visible from the top so it shouldn't be the issue I first expected it to be. I've currently got the rear suspension in pieces (now just waiting for the springs to come back fron sandblasting) then I'll be taking this on, along with the remaining original hoses around the heater pump.
For the lines, there are two options:
1) Have the old lines rebuilt. I like BobRoy's suggestion as this way will outlast me. I've found a local marine shop that can do this.
2) Replace with new. They are now available from Heritage, although they're pretty expensive...
If you do elect to replace, then note phanc's warning re the connections to the cooler in the radiator. I was lucky, but RD ran into some pain. The most awkward part looks to be getting at the line retainers down the side of the trans (again, see Pete Mantell's pic).
When my rubber segment near the radiator leaked, I reached in, cut off the clamp and used fuel line hose with a hose clamp. It doesn't need the factory air-conditioning-style high pressure clamp because the oil pressure is not high. For the hose across the top of the transmission, I didn't attempt that, and had it replaced when I had my transmission rebuilt.
After 2½ years of vacillation the new cooler lines are in place.
My original cooler line flexibles showed signs of cracking at the joins with the aluminium lines. As shown in post #1, they were not showing any sign of weeping, but they needed to be addressed as a preventative measure.
In the end, I went the hard way and replaced with OEM. I’ve kept the originals and intend to have them re-done as member BobRoy suggested with AN fittings to splice in new flexible sections. They can go in the spares box so that I (or possibly whoever inherits the car) can re-do when necessary. The aluminium piping is ½” O/D exactly, so suitable fittings are available.
You will need to remove the TB as a starting point.
Even on a RHD car, it’s tight with the PS high pressure hose and the A/C suction pipe running between the block, crossmember and motor mount:
I wasn’t even sure the lines would pass through this gap as they have an S-bend near the front to route around the compressor:
The LHS catalytic convertor has to come off as the lines come out from underneath, and there is no way to get them between the block and the cat. Once it’s out, the workspace is much clearer:
An opportunity to get to the heater pump from undeneath ‘while you’re in there’.
There are two metal clips holding the lines in place. One is low on the block, just behind where the lines route around the compressor, and is held with a short 8mm bolt in the middle:
The other is attached by one of the bellhousing bolts near the top left-hand side. The lines need to be sprung out of this clip. Not quite as simple as it looks as the clip tends to bend out away from the bellhousing when prising the line from behind. I unbolted it and gave it a clean and (pretty crappy as it turned out) coat of black enamel:
A spot of grease in this will make it easier to re-clip the lines on reassembly.
There is another ‘M’ clip to remove (not shown here) that holds the A/C suction pipe to the left-hand cooler line. On mine, it was located just below this one and looked on first inspection to be part of it.
The cooler lines can now be detached from their connections to the radiator. I recommend removing the top line first and allowing some time for the oil to drain out of the cooler before removing the lower. I followed that process when I replaced the A/C condenser and lost about an eggcup full. I forgot this time and had a messy pool of fluid to mop up. The union nuts are 24mm.
Remember to plug all the open ends afterwards to ensure no foreign matter gets in there.
The connections to the transmission are next. They’re both fairly high up, but I’m not sure if they’re above the normal oil level as I only had the initial cold fill level in the transmission at this point.
This is the outlet union on the left side. 19mm:
and the return on the right. 19mm:
Notice it routes underneath the octopus.
Once these ends are disconnected (and plugged), then, from underneath, start by pulling the outlet line towards the rear of the car, rotating it as you go to allow the S-bend to clear the obstacles above the front subframe. It should ‘unscrew’ out with juggling, and with nothing other than, possibly, very slight bending and then come clear.
Now draw the flexible section of the return line across the top of the transmission. Feed the end of the line up on the other side to help it through, then fold it back on itself so it will go down into the vacated cat space. The line can then be removed by rotating in the same manner as the outlet.
Check that the old ‘O’ rings come out with the lines. Mine stuck in the transmission so I had to hook them out.
Replacement of the lines is a reversal of this procedure, noting:
Once the front of the new return line is through the subframe obstacles, the transmission connector should feed back across the top of the transmission from the left. I was able to get my hand up past the RHS cat to help snake the cooler return pipe across the top of the transmission without disturbing the row of connectors and the main engine connection box on the top by the bulkhead. This saved quite a bit of time/dismantling. Make sure it routes under the electrical connector bracket and the octopus.
Here’s member Pete Mantell’s picture again as you will be doing this part by feel. It also shows the extra obstruction provided by the steering rack on a LHD car:
Use an airline to blow out the replacement lines to ensure there’s no crap in there – even if they’re new - then plug both ends.
Fit new ‘O’ rings on each connection.
Be very careful with the union nuts - they’re aluminium and pretty soft – you really don’t want damaged threads here. Make sure that the line ends are inserted as square as you can get them, and try to get a good start using fingers only.
As you can see from the picture, the outlet took several attempts before I was comfortable applying any real pressure with the open-ended. However, I could get the old nut back in without any drama; closer inspection revealed the thread on it wasn’t in the best of health so I suspect someone has had trouble there before during a motor R&R.
I used antiseize on reassembly.
Check carefully that the lines aren’t abrading anywhere once everything is buttoned up, particularly where they run up the rear of the block, and under the PS line:
This one of a few places I’ll retrofit some sections of foam sheathing for extra protection.
From what I’ve read, ZF asserts that the cooler line pressure on the 6HP can be up to 4 bar. I presume it will be similar for the 5HP.
Torque figures:
Transmission end union nuts: 17-23 Nm
I can’t find a figure for the radiator ones.
All in all, not too painful, other than the amount of stuff that needs to come off to allow it to happen. Getting the front box off was the worst part. No brownie points at all to the designer's location of the pipe brace. A tape measure and two minutes thought and he could have located it an inch or so further forward so it didn't foul the transmission mount when moving the box backwards to disengage from the cat outlets. Only two extra bolts to remove it, but still...
You are quite welcome. I'm glad you were able to resolve the issue. Congrats for successfully battling your way through a very difficult and time-consuming job....
Wait,,,, 60lbs psi?!?!? I did not know that... Hmm
The reason it rings bellllls 🚒🔔🔔🔔🔔 is because, when I was doing stuff on my swim team XKR, the serpentine belt came to just BARELY rub the out line from the trans,,, nicked it and yes, fluid spray... I fix it by cutting,,, then clamping a larger rad hose I had over the entire hydrolic aluminum fitting going into the rad cooler, and on the other side pressing a stint into the flexible rubber hose that remained and clamping there, too. All and all, 3-4 inches of hose... I BELIEVED it to be a "low pressure" line, but 60lbs psi is not, low... Damn! And I was proud my temp "fix".. This teaches me to read stuff... lol
I have been flushing my trans (water from its time under) thru the out and return lines - filling on the return. On the out,,, I can literally fill an empty gallon ATF container in about,,,, I would guess, 10- 20 seconds, maybe less... I was surprised by the rate at which the pump, pumped. Must be pretty viscous when cold...
I better add this job to my list of MUSTS,,, before going any further...
I have been flushing my trans (water from its time under) thru the out and return lines - filling on the return. On the out,,, I can literally fill an empty gallon ATF container in about,,,, I would guess, 10- 20 seconds, maybe less... I was surprised by the rate at which the pump, pumped. Must be pretty viscous when cold...
Yes, my understanding initially was that it was a low-pressure loop. The info came from the forum somewhere.
It was my worry also with suspect lines that a failure on the road could dump out all the fluid and kill the box in short order. I didn't want to give the 5HP any excuse!
Others have done the same as you by putting a clamped patch over the leak without issue, so you're likely OK, although IMO the proper AN fittings as suggested by BobRoy are the elegant solution. Doing it that way also makes it much easier to replace the flexible sections if/when they fail again.
When I started the job, I wasn't even sure if the lines would come out without lifting the motor, and I'm not really equipped to do that. It really was a eureka moment!
Separately, I read that one of the reasons for failure is that the flexible sections are too short, hence they are stressed more than they should be when doing their stuff (although that might have been just for the S-Type). There is the opportunity to address that when splicing in new sections as the ends of the rigid pipes can be cut back.
Either that or be done by cutting all the old stuff out and replacing the whole line with braided flexible hose.
Yes, my understanding initially was that it was a low-pressure loop. The info came from the forum somewhere.
It was my worry also with suspect lines that a failure on the road could dump out all the fluid and kill the box in short order. I didn't want to give the 5HP any excuse!
Others have done the same as you by putting a clamped patch over the leak without issue, so you're likely OK, although IMO the proper AN fittings as suggested by BobRoy are the elegant solution. Doing it that way also makes it much easier to replace the flexible sections if/when they fail again.
When I started the job, I wasn't even sure if the lines would come out without lifting the motor, and I'm not really equipped to do that. It really was a eureka moment!
Separately, I read that one of the reasons for failure is that the flexible sections are too short, hence they are stressed more than they should be when doing their stuff (although that might have been just for the S-Type). There is the opportunity to address that when splicing in new sections as the ends of the rigid pipes can be cut back.
Either that or be done by cutting all the old stuff out and replacing the whole line with braided flexible hose.
Thank you for the needed reassurance, Michael! Really.
I'll hold off and keep an eye on it,,, it in mind! The fixx that is.
And stunning images (Google) of your home. Thanks for sharing that... Makes me ask,,,, why am I in NYC...?
The flexible hose is puuuurdy,,, don't know if this is the exact fit for the rad and tranny connections - or the product I'd choose - but it's good to know they are there... I'll go back and see if you provided measurements for the fittings. But, it's good to know the replacement would be readily available if in a bind... Thanks to you, I'll coast a while... Figuratively,,, not literally, lol... At least not in the scuba diving XKR. Not yet.
Hello many thanks for sharing this process. I have a leak from one of those lines. Have received the OEM genuine lines and im trying to think how to remove the current ones and replace them... Is it possible to replace these without removing the transmission & exhaust? I really want to avoid removing the transmission and do this job. I have a vehicle inspection pit.. hence working from underneath is easy for me.
Hi,
Since you have an X308, some of the following is conjecture as the layout may be different.
According to the JEPC, the pipes carry different part numbers. FWIW, they look very similar, although I'd expect that given it's the same engine and trans.
I could not see any way of getting the cooler pipes to pass between the cat and the bellhousing. The gap is just too narrow, so the cat has to come off.
However, I couldn't push the exhaust system far enough back to get the middle box clear of the cat outlet pipes, so that had to go too.
There seem to be two different arrangements at this junction on the x308 - one similar to the early X100, and the other is a flange with two bolts. Perhaps, if you have the latter, you may have enough juggle room.
Bottom line:- I had no need to remove the trans to do this job, but the LHS cat had to come out. Given the similarities, I'd expect it to be the same for you, BUT I didn't have the added obstruction caused by the steering rack.
Inspection pit is a big plus as you will be doing most of the work from underneath. It's not really a difficult job:- just another where there's lots of 'stuff' to get out of the way first.
Good opportunity to drop the trans pan and replace the filter as you'll be doing a fluid change. Maybe even consider the main pressure valve 'while you're in there'.
Beware the flange on the PS pump pipe. Could have been designed to cut through aluminium
Last edited by michaelh; 01-30-2022 at 06:15 AM.
Reason: spelling
Hello many thanks for sharing this process. I have a leak from one of those lines. Have received the OEM genuine lines and im trying to think how to remove the current ones and replace them... Is it possible to replace these without removing the transmission & exhaust? I really want to avoid removing the transmission and do this job. I have a vehicle inspection pit.. hence working from underneath is easy for me.
You will have to take a serious look at this before you take MY word for it... Seriously. That disclaimer out of the way.
2 things.
One, at the point of the leak (I had a leak here for another reason on a XKR) it is possible to cut the joint out of the line and use hose. If you cut/remove the pressure fit cups/connectors off the lines the ends will receive a hose and clamps. Easy and quick job.... I did this rather than completely replace the lines BUT, at the time I was looking at what it would take to replace lines completely if I needed to.
I THINK that if you remove the entire throttle body and intake (all in one piece). The expansion tank and one side of the octopus hoses. Then the LH valve/cam cover. Then, support the engine and remove the entire motor mount assembly on the LH side the trans lines can be changed mostly from the top... I think this all sounds worse than it really is.
Just be extremely careful when threading and unthreading the trans inlet and outlet on the side of the transmission!!!
Still, I would look at patching the line with a splice. It not high pressure at all.
This is all from memory and,,,, I've never worked on a 97 xj8 x308... The engines do look similar and the engine bay possibly has a bit more room.
Have started it... till now....I Have:
removed intake manidfold,
removed expansion tank and octapus
removed the brackets that hold the lines(upper + lower)
have unscrewed successfully the oil cooler lines
.....
....The lines with all the above being done so far seem impossible to remove.. removing Left mount + exhaust cat seem to help A LOT ..
so next step is to remove those and try further...
I tried to unscrew the exhaust cat 4 screws however they seem very very hard to get them turn at the point that im worried that they will brake... Really stressed with this process of removing the cat ... its very rusty and burned and screws seem super stuck. thinking of maybe to warm them with fire-gas.. any ideas here?
also actions im thinking to do "while im here":...change all coolant hoses including octapus... manifold + throttle full gaskets, water pump, thermo tower aluminum etc any other suggestions while im here?
Let me know if you have any comments on the above! would really appreciate it!
I tried to unscrew the exhaust cat 4 screws however they seem very very hard to get them turn at the point that im worried that they will brake...
The nuts on top of the manifold were not easy to get to, and I couldn't get a socket to all of them. I had to obtain a deep socket for the ones I could since the studs poke out quite a way beyond them. There's also the two bolts underneath that attach the cat to the bracket on the bellhousing. although I found they came out without issue.
I don't think it's too much of a drama if you shear any of the studs since you can much better attack them once the cat is out. I'd recommend giving them repeated squirts of penetrating oil and leaving a day or two for it do do its magic (hopefully) before you try to remove them. If you can apply some heat here it will help.
It's worth a try to get the lines out without removing the motor mount:- see how you go. I didn't need to, but my car being RHD means there's not the steering rack obstruction on that side that you may have.
Originally Posted by jaguar.x308.1997
also actions im thinking to do "while im here":...change all coolant hoses including octopus... manifold + throttle full gaskets, water pump, thermo tower aluminum etc any other suggestions while im here?
Depends how deep you want to go. You have the inlet manifold off, so definitely replace the two valley hoses and the thermostat tower. Add a new tee piece (NNE3944BA) to the octopus as it's plastic and cheap. Take care to keep coolant away from the knock sensors.
Many of those numbers will be valid for your car, but do check as there are likely to be detail differences for the XJ (thinking radiator hoses & around the heater pump).
Plug the cooler pipe unions on the rad to keep dirt out (& on the trans when you get there), and shout if you need anything further. It would be useful if you can make some notes as I'm sure it will be of value to other XJ owners.
Got them out!! waiting for the parts to arrive to put everything back together ...
after a lot of wd40 and a couple of days to lube well the cat nuts removed the left cat .. then screwed/wiggled the lines from underneath towards the rear and downwards with little to no bend and got them out easily... both have many cracks at the rubber parts .. will definently replace both of them...
Thank you very much for the guide in this post... the xk steps you gave apply very well to the x308/xj8 ..
Will post later on after I assemble the parts back together..
Thank you again.
Forgot to clear up:
i Did not remove the left mount,
the steering rack obstruction was not that bad.. managed to wiggle them through it.. If that was not there it would be piece of cake.
neither removed the left cam cover
neither removed the gearbox.
Was not necessary till now...
Hope the new ones will fit back in .....
Last edited by jaguar.x308.1997; 02-12-2022 at 01:44 PM.
10-13-2019, 07:23 AM
